# Should a school be allowed to ban a Confederate flag decal on a student's truck? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915 "2009-05-01T00:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/41 "2009-05-01T12:55:59Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Isn’t claiming that the “Confederate Flag” can only stand for one thing guilty of both the Poisoning the Well fallacy, as well as the Excluded Middle? No > [@Tristan](#): > > Semi-Hijack: I know a few folks online that dress up in SS uniforms, with lightning bolts and deaths head hats, on occasion. They are WW2 enactors. They find the German Army of WW2 to be fascinating. Most of them also have a basic US Army GI outfit. Are they racists when wearing the SS uniforms, and not when they wear the US uniform? This is an interesting point because there is a very clear analogue with civil war reenactors. I think in either case anyone would agree that the reenactors aren’t necessarily pro-slavery or pro-nazi. The question is, 1) do any WW2 reenactors display swastikas on their cars and B) do you think there’s any likelihood that people who want to prominently display the Confederate flag in high school are avid civil war reenactors? ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/42 "2009-05-01T12:58:07Z")
I don’t think it should be banned. The First Amendment clearly prohibits banning this sort of thing. However, I think that 99% of the people who take pride in brandishing their Confederate Flag for all to see are backwards and ignorant. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of rebellion against the Union and of the subjugation of an entire race of people. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/43 "2009-05-01T13:37:52Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > When you talk about “200 years of your culture” you are talking mostly about the Northern states and coastal areas. With a few exceptions, most of the South was Indian Territory two hundred years ago. New York, for example, has had slavery for almost half of its existence. The Southern state of Virginia has a similar record. But when you get away from coastal areas, that number drops quit a bit. I believe that Tennessee had slaves for less than 70 years. Tennessee was made a state in 1796 and flew the US flag until it succeeded in 1861. It flew the Confederate flag until 1865 and has been under the US flag again ever since then. It’s a state with 209 years under the US flag, but the flag that flew for 4 years while the state was involved with traitorous rebellion against the US is the one that represents its heritage? Please. > [@](#): > > Was New York “born of racism”? Maybe so. All of the states and men that had slaves were certainly traitors to the principals set forth in the \*\*Declaration of Independence \*\*and the **Constitution**. Sadly, that includes Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. No, New York wasn’t born of racism. It did have slavery at the start, but it wasn’t created _specifically_ to be a state that continued the tradition of slavery. The Confederacy was. > [@](#): > > Was Thomas Jefferson a racist? He obviously loved a black woman. Maybe it had something to do with “frame of mind” or perspective rather than racism. I think keeping slaves of only a certain color is about as distilled and pure a form of racism you’re likely to find. Yes, he was a racist. A great man in a lot of ways, but a huge failure in this respect. > [@](#): > > At any rate, the flag that you speak of was a battle flag. Sometimes it represents racism and is an attempt to bully. Sometimes it represents pride in being from the South. Personally, I wish people would quit using it altogether. But as long as Northerners try to tell us what it means when we know damned well it isn’t limited to that, it will probably be trotted out. I’m not a northerner. I’m here deep in the heart of Texas and I know very well what that flag stands for and what kind of people fly it. > [@](#): > > Stereotype much? Your right, I’m sure that while they were making the dark skinned pseudo-humans do their work for them and occasionally raping their women they weren’t necessarily wearing linen or sipping lemonade. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/44 "2009-05-01T13:38:47Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > A Confederate flag has no other meaning to anybody except to a Confederate (as in: racist, traitorous asshole) apologist, just like the use of a swastika indicates that the user is a Nazi, with all that entails. There is no other meaning, period. Stuff and nonsense. You mean it has no other meaning _to you_. Diogenes the Cynic has things about right. 30-40 years ago, the flag was everywhere, and not as a symbol of racism but as symbol of generalized rebellion. It was featured prominently in the aforementioned _Dukes of Hazzard_. It made a casual appearance in _Animal House_ on a dorm room wall. It was for sale as a patch for your blue jeans in children’s comic books, and nobody blinked, or thought twice about it. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/45 "2009-05-01T13:47:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > … just like the use of a swastika indicates that the user is a Nazi, with all that entails. There is no other meaning, period. And if the user is a Buddhist, does it still mean he’s a Nazi? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/46 "2009-05-01T13:57:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Lead singer for The Doors. That was Che _Morrison_. Duh! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/47 "2009-05-01T14:29:30Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Tennessee was made a state in 1796 and flew the US flag until it succeeded in 1861. Tennessee did not “succeed”. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/48 "2009-05-01T14:31:37Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Tennessee did not “succeed”. …but it’s still _hoping_! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/49 "2009-05-01T14:40:45Z")
What purpose does banning the flag serve? I admit I’m one of those who leans toward the idea that anyone displaying the Confederate Flag these days is, if not a racist, then an asshole looking to piss people off. But banning the flag is merely getting rid of a symptom. The person who displayed it isn’t going to stop thinking what he thinks, and now there’s additional resentment toward school administration alongside it, which is especially bad if the student happens to be one of those mythical creatures who means no ill intent toward anyone and just wants to show honest Southern pride. Leave it be. It’s political speech, and this way you know who to keep an eye on. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/50 "2009-05-01T14:52:53Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Stuff and nonsense. You mean it has no other meaning _to you_. > > Diogenes the Cynic has things about right. 30-40 years ago, the flag was everywhere, and not as a symbol of racism but as symbol of generalized rebellion. It was featured prominently in the aforementioned _Dukes of Hazzard_. It made a casual appearance in _Animal House_ on a dorm room wall. It was for sale as a patch for your blue jeans in children’s comic books, and nobody blinked, or thought twice about it. Probably true but times change and what was true 35 years ago may no be true today. I have no idea who’s right. Maybe the meaning has changed for some people and not others. Maybe the PC patrol made unacceptable what had been acceptable. Maybe it has changed because some assholes appropriated it and gave it a bad connotation. That’s what happened to the Swastika. Maybe it’s a bit of everything. This is like those arguments about whether the word (X) is offensive or not. There is just no way to come to any definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/51 "2009-05-01T14:54:26Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Tennessee did not “succeed”. I’ll have you know that there are parts of the state that are doing very well. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/52 "2009-05-01T14:57:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That teacher annoys me: he’s wrong in three different ways. > > 1. The confederate battle flag wasn’t designed to intimidate another group. True, it’s found its way into modern times via a revival by segregationists in the fifties and sixties, but that’s not what it was designed for. What kind of lame-ass battle flag isn’t intended to be intimidating? I have it on good authority that certain Union regiments found its approach intimidating. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/53 "2009-05-01T15:02:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > No positive connotations to _you_. To many people, the Confederate flag is a symbol of their culture, that doesn’t necessarily endorse or condone slavery. But that’s not actually true. It’s a symbol of a small, temporary political faction formed out of their larger culture and extinguished over 140 years ago. It was brought back into public view explicitly to communicate coded racism and hatred, not for other reasons. Some people SAID it was part of their culture when they did that, but their actions showed otherwise (specifically, the fact that the flag wasn’t reintroduced until after the segregation issue came to a head). If current Southerners _believe_ the folks who said it was “part of their culture” when it visibly wasn’t until they wanted a symbol to communicate coded racism, that’s not evidence it actually _is_ a symbol of their culture, that’s just ignorance to be fought. Edit: my opinion of its symbolism does not address the separate issue of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/54 "2009-05-01T15:02:35Z")
To the OP: Yes. I think the jurisprudence allowing pretty extensive limitations on student speech rights is probably on point. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/55 "2009-05-01T15:31:52Z")
I’m seeing a few posts talking about “banning the flag.” Just so there isn’t any confusion, there is no proposal for the government to ban the flag outside of school property. The discussion is only about what kinds of expression a _public school_ has the right to place limitations on for students on school property. It has already been adjudicated by the Supreme Court that schools have the right to impose _some_ restrictions under certain conditions. The question is whether a Confederate flag meets those conditions. Regardless of the intent of the student, I think most courts would probably still find it reasonable for the school to believe that it has a strong potential to be inflammatory and disruptive, and/or counter to a mission of the school. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/56 "2009-05-01T15:53:58Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And if the user is a Buddhist, does it still mean he’s a Nazi? Elwood: “Buddhist Nazis.” Jake: “I hate Buddhist Nazis.” ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/57 "2009-05-01T15:55:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The question is whether a Confederate flag meets those conditions. I don’t think that’s not the only question. In situations where schools have placed limitations on free speech in the past, the student was generally wearing the questionable content. This was deemed a disruption to the learning experience, an argument that I don’t think you can make about a bumper sticker on a car outside in the parking lot. Of course, the fact that this is taking place in Minnesota, where such stickers are far less common than they are in the South, should probably be taken into consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/58 "2009-05-01T16:13:11Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > If current Southerners _believe_ the folks who said it was “part of their culture” when it visibly wasn’t until they wanted a symbol to communicate coded racism, that’s not evidence it actually _is_ a symbol of their culture, that’s just ignorance to be fought. Since when do you get to decide what other people can use as symbols for their culture? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/59 "2009-05-01T16:21:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Since when do you get to decide what other people can use as symbols for their culture? Did **Sailboat** say they couldn’t use it? It looks to me like he was just saying he doesn’t believe them when they say that’s their only motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/60 "2009-05-01T16:25:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Since when do you get to decide what other people can use as symbols for their culture? Well, if you read my sentence carefully, you’ll see I was addressing claims that it was an established part of their culture at the time it came to prominence because of segregation. Those claims are untrue. I suppose I can’t prevent people from saying “this NOW symbolizes my culture since the Voting Right Act, but in the past had other connotations,” if they want to be that specific. But claims that it has comfortable nonracist historical roots in common use are, at best, misunderstandings. I live in the South, was born in a border state, and have long roots in North Carolina and Mississippi. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=4)