# Should a school be allowed to ban a Confederate flag decal on a student's truck? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915 "2009-05-01T00:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/61 "2009-05-01T16:29:01Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I don’t think that’s not the only question. In situations where schools have placed limitations on free speech in the past, the student was generally wearing the questionable content. This was deemed a disruption to the learning experience, an argument that I don’t think you can make about a bumper sticker on a car outside in the parking lot. I guarantee you could make the case if it was a swastika. My guess is the administration was worried that the owner of the truck would get his ass kicked (potentially opening the school to liability), and it might precipitate reprisals and escalate into a factional feud (black kids vs redneck kids). It was a headache they didn’t need. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/62 "2009-05-01T16:34:18Z")
1.) I personally find the use of the symbol disgusting and reprehensible. 2.) I believe that, as long as the student (a) keeps the symbol out of the classroom and (b)doesn’t allow his prejudices (or ignorance of the meaning of the symbol he has chosen to display) to interfere with the way he interacts with his fellow students, he has the right to put whatever stupid shit on his car he wants. (And yes, that’s the same response I’d have to a swastika.) ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/63 "2009-05-01T16:35:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I guarantee you could make the case if it was a swastika. > > My guess is the administration was worried that the owner of the truck would get his ass kicked (potentially opening the school to liability), and it might precipitate reprisals and escalate into a factional feud (black kids vs redneck kids). It was a headache they didn’t need. Good post. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/64 "2009-05-01T16:54:09Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I don’t think that’s not the only question. In situations where schools have placed limitations on free speech in the past, the student was generally wearing the questionable content. This was deemed a disruption to the learning experience, an argument that I don’t think you can make about a bumper sticker on a car outside in the parking lot. Well, unfortunately I think the Supreme Court has said otherwise. In [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse\_v.\_Frederick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick) the SCOTUS upheld the punishment of a student for displaying a banner reading “Bong Hits 4 Jesus” while off-campus (albeit at a school-sanctioned event). I think this shows that there is some precedence that schools can limit behavior even outside the classroom. I use the word “unfortunate” in my first sentence because, while I think some degree of free speech curtailment is more conducive to a learning environment, I’m unequivocally opposed to any and all limitations outside of the classroom. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/65 "2009-05-01T17:11:25Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > In [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse\_v.\_Frederick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick) the SCOTUS upheld the punishment of a student for displaying a banner reading “Bong Hits 4 Jesus” while off-campus (albeit at a school-sanctioned event). I think this shows that there is some precedence that schools can limit behavior even outside the classroom. It’s outside the classroom, but it’s still a school-sponsored event. A parking lot is not an event. _Well, okay, the parking lot on the morning before my last day of class senior year was an event._ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/66 "2009-05-01T17:58:27Z")
But a parking lot is school property. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/67 "2009-05-01T18:14:10Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Your right, I’m sure that while they were making the dark skinned pseudo-humans do their work for them and occasionally raping their women they weren’t necessarily wearing linen or sipping lemonade. Since the vast majority of those living in the area that called itself the Confederate States didn’t own slaves, I am pretty sure you are projecting some of your own feelings on this subject. The truth, whether you (or others) want to admit it, is that while there is a societal stigma against it, there are a myriad of reasons why someone would display the “Confederate Flag”. Someone who has ancestors who fought for the cause. They might not agree with it, but it’s part of their family history. Someone who believes that the Federal Government is no longer to be trusted and is trying to invoke the spririt of succession. Someone into heraldry who thinks it’s a pretty flag. Someone who is into the “redneck” look. And of course, someone who believes that Blacks should be kept in a subservient position, and are willing to fight about that. For example, I know a guy who prides himself on his “redneck white trash” background, with “confederate flag” stickers on his truck and everything. He’s also just about one of the nicest guys I know. He is also about as non-racist as someone can get. Doesn’t fit nicely in your “all with that flag are racist” box at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/68 "2009-05-01T18:23:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But a parking lot is school property. Yes, but events aren’t taking place there. I guess the distinction in my head is between “places you can get away from” and “places you can’t.” You pass through the parking lot, but you spend your day in class (or at an event). Someone doesn’t have to stand there and stare at a sticker on a car, but they would have to stare at someone’s shirt, or notebook, or banner at an event. > [@Tristan](#): > > For example, I know a guy who prides himself on his “redneck white trash” background, with “confederate flag” stickers on his truck and everything. He’s also just about one of the nicest guys I know. He is also about as non-racist as someone can get. Doesn’t fit nicely in your “all with that flag are racist” box at all. Just because you don’t \*\*think \*\*you’re being racist, doesn’t mean you’re not. I have invented a new flag. The design looks an awful lot like “ALL BRITISH DESERVE TO BE GUTSHOT,” but that’s not really what it’s about. To me, it is a symbol of world peace and kittens. If you choose to make another interpretation, well, you’re just wrong. Because the prior associations of the “words” on the flag don’t matter–I just picked them because I like the way they look! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/69 "2009-05-01T18:26:46Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > It was brought back into public view explicitly to communicate coded racism and hatred, not for other reasons. Some people SAID it was part of their culture when they did that, but their actions showed otherwise (specifically, the fact that the flag wasn’t reintroduced until after the segregation issue came to a head). That’s a popular belief, but simply not true. The flag has been around as a symbol of the South more or less continuously since the Civil War. It was adopted as part of the state flag of Mississippi in 1894. It was flown by predominantly Southern units in World War I and World War II. Decades before the Civil Rights movement, it was used as a logo for Dixie Oil, and in stylized form as a logo for Dixie Crystals sugar. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/70 "2009-05-01T18:33:51Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > That’s a popular belief, but simply not true. The flag has been around as a symbol of the South more or less continuously since the Civil War. It was adopted as part of the state flag of Mississippi in 1894. It was flown by predominantly Southern units in World War I and World War II. Decades before the Civil Rights movement, it was used as a logo for Dixie Oil, and in stylized form as a logo for Dixie Crystals sugar. Don’t forget the Haunted Tank. [![](https://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/315969699_f071d63d04_o.jpg) ](https://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/315969699_f071d63d04_o.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/71 "2009-05-01T18:40:47Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Not sure you were as clear as you wanted to be when making this post. I was mad. I get (even more) incoherent when I’m mad. I really, truly dislike the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/72 "2009-05-01T19:23:52Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > Well, unfortunately I think the Supreme Court has said otherwise. In [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse\_v.\_Frederick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick) the SCOTUS upheld the punishment of a student for displaying a banner reading “Bong Hits 4 Jesus” while off-campus (albeit at a school-sanctioned event). I think this shows that there is some precedence that schools can limit behavior even outside the classroom. I never said otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/73 "2009-05-01T19:34:03Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Don’t forget the Haunted Tank. > > [http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/315969699\_f071d63d04\_o.jpg](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/315969699_f071d63d04_o.jpg) Well what do you expect from those virulent racists at DC Comics? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/74 "2009-05-01T19:59:11Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > 30-40 years ago, the flag was everywhere, and not as a symbol of racism but as symbol of generalized rebellion. It was featured prominently in the aforementioned _Dukes of Hazzard_. It made a casual appearance in _Animal House_ on a dorm room wall. It was for sale as a patch for your blue jeans in children’s comic books, and nobody blinked, or thought twice about it. Seriously. This whole “Confederate flag as taboo” thing must be a recent development. Mattel made the General Lee hotwheel car for years with the confederate flag and never caused a stir. Maybe we should ban the jolly rogers flag because it symbolizes pirates and if you put one on your car you must be in support of the Somalian’s activities? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/75 "2009-05-01T20:01:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m struck by a thought, no snark intended. Do they ban the swastika? That was a quick Godwinizing. I don’t think that’s a reasonable comparison. To me the Confederate flag means “Southern pride” and “Don’t tread on me.” Did the Confederates attack other people? Did the Confederates run gas chambers? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/76 "2009-05-01T20:13:52Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > The truth, whether you (or others) want to admit it, is that while there is a societal stigma against it, there are a myriad of reasons why someone would display the “Confederate Flag”. Sure, there are plenty of reasons why somebody would display the Confederate Flag. They run the gamut from ignorant to simply insensitive to trolling for a reaction to outright hate. If you like it because you think it’s pretty, or because it completes your redneck ‘look’, you should probably ask yourself if those are really important enough reasons to proudly display a design that represented the army of a nation founded on white supremacy over blacks. Displaying it because your ancestors fought for the cause? Why would you honor them for that? Honor them for the good things they did in their lives, not the bad. And to be fair here, I’m sure a large number of Confederate soldiers felt like they were simply defending their homes and didn’t really care about or maybe even opposed slavery. But at the end of the day the fact is they turned traitor to the US and fought for a nation that was born of racist oppression. I think it’s a tragedy that a lot of otherwise good people participated in such an unworthy cause and I’m not expecting their memory to be reviled or for people to go spit on their graves, but people should have the decency to not glorify it. But instead they raise that hate born flag up high and call it a symbol of who they are and the principles that they stand for. A flag born from the desire to perpetuate our nation’s most shameful atrocity and they choose _it_ to be the symbol of their heritage. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/77 "2009-05-01T20:26:10Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Seriously. This whole “Confederate flag as taboo” thing must be a recent development. Mattel made the General Lee hotwheel car for years with the confederate flag and never caused a stir. Maybe we should ban the jolly rogers flag because it symbolizes pirates and if you put one on your car you must be in support of the Somalian’s activities? Disney made black faced minstrel cartoons that never caused a stir either. They don’t make those cartoons anymore. Racism and its symbols are becoming less and less acceptable. And anyway, nobody is advocating that you ban the Confederate flag. They’re just saying that schools should have the right to keep them off campus. I have about as low opinion of the flag as you can possibly have but even I wouldn’t want to take away somebody’s right to display it in the vast, vast majority of situations. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/78 "2009-05-01T20:30:30Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > And to be fair here, I’m sure a large number of Confederate soldiers felt like they were simply defending their homes and didn’t really care about or maybe even opposed slavery. But at the end of the day the fact is they turned traitor to the US and fought for a nation that was born of racist oppression. The Southern states seceded from the union and wanted their independence, how is that so different from what we did to the British? Once Union troops started invading, things got serious quickly. Some interesting reading here about the Lost Cause of the Confederacy: [Lost Cause of the Confederacy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy) Whether that line of thinking is correct or incorrect, many Southerners still see it as the “War of Northern Aggression.” ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/79 "2009-05-01T20:38:46Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > The Southern states seceded from the union and wanted their independence, how is that so different from what we did to the British? Once Union troops started invading, things got serious quickly. > > Some interesting reading here about the Lost Cause of the Confederacy: [Lost Cause of the Confederacy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy) Whether that line of thinking is correct or incorrect, many Southerners still see it as the “War of Northern Aggression.” Because the US wanted independence from tyranny, and the Confederacy wanted independence for tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/80 "2009-05-01T20:42:28Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think it should be treated exactly the same as if he had a swastika on his car. It’s distasteful, but he has a right to express himself. Like most symbols, even the swastika had some good meanings until ol’ you-know-who came along. Even on [American Military uniforms](http://URL=%22http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm) As far as the OP, no. Absoutely not. Free Speech is Free Speech. Aside from certain restrictions, there isn’t a reason to stop this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=5)