# Should a school be allowed to ban a Confederate flag decal on a student's truck? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915 "2009-05-01T00:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/101 "2009-05-02T04:11:08Z")
As someone who grew up in the South, whose family’s arrival in North America pre-dates the American Revolution, who has direct descendants who served in the Confederate Army, who went to high school with a guy who wrapped himself in the battleflag and shot himself on a civil war battle field; I can tell you that the only people I knew who displayed the battle flag were absolute racists. They would talk about cultural heritage and blah blah blah, but ultimately they thought it was funny to use PC language against people. Here are the facts: the civil war was about slavery; the battleflag is a racist symbol, and if the South rises again, it would get its ass kicked; again. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/102 "2009-05-02T04:23:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Slavery solves this dilemma. Buy your workers, give them less work for part of the year, and then work them to the bone during the hard parts of the year. Add to this the bonus that when your slaves breed, they make new slaves for you! > [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Second, the economic difference I was hinting at was that the North was rich and industrial, while the South was agricultural and stagnant. These days it’s the coasts/cities that are technological and the center/rural parts that are stagnant. This is what causes the cultural chasm then and now. And I can see how the Confederate flag could be a symbol of that for some proponents, as much as white supremacy for others. All of this is again simply dodging the issue by ignoring that slavery is back there as the reason for all of these other issues. The economic difference wasn’t simply that the South was agricultural and stagnant; it was an agricultural economy based on the labor of millions of slaves. Then there is this ‘cultural’ issue which nobody can seem to ever be able to explain what, exactly it is. This culture was also an outgrowth of a society that based its existance on the use of millions of slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/103 "2009-05-02T05:10:24Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Yes, slavery was an important issue, even the paramount issue. Absent the unwillingness to yield up their slaves, the Civil War would never have happened. Had sufficient people in the South been willing to give in to the tide of moral thought on the issue, our country would have been spared a very difficult and bloody chapter in its history. Sorry, but there’s a misstatement of history here that needs correction. The North was _not_ demanding that the South “yield up their slaves” prior to the war. Abolitionists were in a distinct minority and while an annoyance were not a real threat (as the John Brown affair showed). Southern leaders were dismayed by the idea that slavery was showing signs of being a dying institution (notably, in regard to new states entering the Union), saw the handwriting on the wall and decided to precipitate a conflict by violently seceding. If the South hadn’t taken this action, there would have been intensifying pressure on it to end slavery, but this likely wouldn’t have come about for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/104 "2009-05-02T14:24:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Sorry, but I don’t agree with anything you quoted there. You don’t need to apologize for having an opinion, even though it is wrong and supported by little more than inflamed rhetoric about prisons, authoritarianism run amok, and thought police persecutions. The students remain free to have their own thoughts, and even express them. If they do so in a civil, thoughtful, and respectful manner. While a flag sticker in the parking lot is at the far end of the spectrum of overprotection, your viewpoint goes even further the opposite direction. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/105 "2009-05-02T15:22:11Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I never said otherwise. Well, I was just proffering a SCOTUS decision showing that schools have been able to limit behavior outside the classroom. Since a parking lot is outside the classroom, I was suggesting that there does seem to be some ground on which the school can stand to ban a bumper sticker or flag in said parking lot. Sorry if I misunderstood your post, though. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/106 "2009-05-02T16:00:07Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Note that the Confederate state with the most farms per capita, Arkansas, was a Middle South state, slower to secede, where slavery was less overwhelmingly important. The deep, deep South states like Mississippi or South Carolina had scarcely more farms per capita than such places as New Jersey or Massachusetts–presumably dominated by their industrialized “dark Satanic mills”–but the farms that did exist in South Carolina or Mississippi were very _big_ “farms” (and most of the population were slaves on those “farms”). Louisiana came in dead last among the states in farms per capita, ahead only of the desert territory of Nevada–if you knew nothing else but that statistic, you might think the economy of 1860 Louisiana was dependent on mining or manufacturing. The number of farms per person is not really all that relevant. The _area_ of farmland per person is a lot more revealing. Nice post, though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/107 "2009-05-02T18:08:33Z")
Given the rebellious nature of teenagers I think it would behoove the school to talk the kid into removing it because the obvious result will be a plastering of bumper stickers on all the teachers cars or a redesign of the flag so that it is not the flag but still recognizable in some fashion. The school board will dedicated itself into redefining the image until they’ve banned every logo and color scheme from the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/108 "2009-05-02T18:30:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Given the rebellious nature of teenagers I think it would behoove the school to talk the kid into removing it because the obvious result will be a plastering of bumper stickers on all the teachers cars or a redesign of the flag so that it is not the flag but still recognizable in some fashion. Heh. Like [this](http://library.educationworld.net/statefacts/flags/fl_flag_l.gif)? Or [this](http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/state-flags/images/alabama-flag.gif)? Or [this](http://ideas.aetn.org/edweb/ATI/2005/July/ATTs/Web%20Page/flag_sm.gif)? Or [this](http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/tennessee/images/state-flag-tennessee.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/109 "2009-05-03T18:28:00Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Heh. Like [this](http://library.educationworld.net/statefacts/flags/fl_flag_l.gif)? Or [this](http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/state-flags/images/alabama-flag.gif)? Or [this](http://ideas.aetn.org/edweb/ATI/2005/July/ATTs/Web%20Page/flag_sm.gif)? Or [this](http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/tennessee/images/state-flag-tennessee.jpg)? [or this](http://www.zazzle.com/womens_rebel_peace_sign_t_shirt-235332745343202953). Honest to God, I googled “rebel peace sign” and found one on the first click. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/110 "2009-05-03T18:36:50Z")
On Friday, I saw a parent’s truck at school. It was in our parking lot, and there were at least four different confederate flag bumper stickers, including one that said, “I have a dream,” above a picture of the White House flying a Confederate flag. It’s pretty hard to come up with a nonracist interpretation of that one (although this being the straight dope I guarantee someone will try). I wonder: do parents at a school have any more freedom of speech than children at the school? I’m not sure whether this issue has ever been decided by a court. It seems to me that the parent’s truck is at least as disruptive to the learning environment as a child’s would be, with much less justification for being there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/111 "2009-05-04T05:12:16Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > But that’s not actually true. It’s a symbol of a small, temporary political faction formed out of their larger culture and extinguished over 140 years ago. It was brought back into public view explicitly to communicate coded racism and hatred, not for other reasons. Some people SAID it was part of their culture when they did that, but their actions showed otherwise (specifically, the fact that the flag wasn’t reintroduced until after the segregation issue came to a head). > > If current Southerners _believe_ the folks who said it was “part of their culture” when it visibly wasn’t until they wanted a symbol to communicate coded racism, that’s not evidence it actually _is_ a symbol of their culture, that’s just ignorance to be fought. You know, the dudes who say the CSA flag is part of their culture and history as full of BS. OK, it is a part of their history- a very minor part. Georgia (to take one Southern state as an example) was part of England/Great Britain for about 44 year- more than 10 times as long as it was part of the CSA. How many Union Jacks do we see flying in the South? And, if it _is_ such a critical part of the Souths culture and history, how come we never see any _Black_ Southerners flying one? Lots of Blacks in the South you know, and many of their ancestors were around since before the CSA (not willingly, true, but still) I admit, we do the same thing out here in San Jose- lots of Mexican flags flying for Cinco de Mayo, even though San Jose was part of Spain for far longer than it was part of Mexico (and in fact, most Califorios didn’t like being under Mexican rule). But at least SJ was part of Mexico for 20 years, five times as long as Georgia was part of the CSA. Oddly enough, the CSA Constitution specifically protected slavery (“_No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed._.)”, but did not allow for States to secede! In fact “_The Confederate Constitution contains little evidence of an agenda to advance the cause of states’ rights.[4] The constitution contained many of the phrases and clauses which had led to disagreement among the states in the original Union, including a Supremacy Clause, a Commerce Clause (albeit a more restrained version than in the U.S. Constitution, which itself had not been construed nearly as broadly as it is today), and a Necessary and Proper Clause. By these clauses, the Confederate Congress had powers almost identical to those of the U.S. Congress._” > **[Constitution of the Confederate States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Constitution)** > > The Constitution of the Confederate States, sometimes referred to as the Confederate Constitution, was the supreme law of the Confederate States of America. It superseded the Provisional Constitution of the Confederate States, the Confederate States' first constitution, in 1862. It remained in effect until the end of the American Civil War in 1865. > The original Provisional Constitution is located at the American Civil War Museum in Richmond, Virginia, and differs slightly from the version lat... So much for the Civil war being about States Rights. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/112 "2009-05-04T05:59:43Z")
There’s no doubt that the Confederate flag is not only a part of southern American culture but also American culture as a whole. Almost everyone knows what it is on sight though there are different interpretations as to what it means. I don’t think anyone would disagree that it is a symbol of southern culture but some see it as representing pride while others see it as representing racism. They’re both right. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You know, the dudes who say the CSA flag is part of their culture and history as full of BS. It’s been a part of the culture for well over a century now. At what point do you decide it’s part of a culture or not? It’s a symbol almost all of us recognize whether we’re southern or not. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/113 "2009-05-04T13:20:13Z")
It doesn’t make any real difference if it is part of a culture or not - speech is protected in the USA. Not just non-offensive speech - all speech, especially political or religious speech. All this stuff about diversity and how important it is - until someone says something I disagree with. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/114 "2009-05-04T13:29:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wonder: do parents at a school have any more freedom of speech than children at the school? I’m not sure whether this issue has ever been decided by a court. It seems to me that the parent’s truck is at least as disruptive to the learning environment as a child’s would be, with much less justification for being there. Is it against the law to be racist? Should it be? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/115 "2009-05-04T13:45:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, if it _is_ such a critical part of the Souths culture and history, how come we never see any _Black_ Southerners flying one? What, you mean like _[this](http://blogs.sohh.com/atlanta/archives/Luda.jpg)_? 🙂 Ludacris was wearing it ironically, of course, but I have seen the Confederate flag reworked with African nationalist colors and worn by black Southerners [like so](http://store.urbanprofile.com/product.php?productid=20083&cat=311&page=1&js=n). (In fact, Ludacris was wearing that style of flag under the outfit linked above.) There was a whole clothing line based on this idea about 15 years ago. So yeah, even black Southerners sort of struggle with (and then come back to) the Confederate flag when looking for a visual symbol to represent their Southern-ness. Would it be nice if there were another shorthand symbol for the South? Yeah, but there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/116 "2009-05-04T14:06:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It doesn’t make any real difference if it is part of a culture or not - speech is protected in the USA. Not just non-offensive speech - all speech, especially political or religious speech. > > All this stuff about diversity and how important it is - until someone says something I disagree with. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s the left-wing for you. Always huge champions of freedom of speech and freedom of expression - until someone speaks or expresses something that goes against what they agree with. THEN it becomes “offensive” and must be censored. Political correctness is slowly chipping away at the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/117 "2009-05-04T14:08:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Is it against the law to be racist? Should it be? Living here in Mississippi for nearly nine years, I think they are annoying, but they also help me identify the overt racists. I’d classify them as more “helpful” than anything. It’s mighty white of them to do that and make it easy. > [@Argent Towers](#): > > That’s the left-wing for you. Always huge champions of freedom of speech and freedom of expression - until someone speaks or expresses something that goes against what they agree with. THEN it becomes “offensive” and must be censored. > > Political correctness is slowly chipping away at the First Amendment. Wow, it took two of you to bring down that straw man. I’m sure the ACLU is crusading hard to have that guy executed or something, right? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/118 "2009-05-04T14:18:56Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > That’s the left-wing for you. Always huge champions of freedom of speech and freedom of expression - until someone speaks or expresses something that goes against what they agree with. THEN it becomes “offensive” and must be censored Cite? Cite a single example of the “left wing,” or anybody on this board wanting the government to “censor” any speech they don’t like. > [@](#): > > Political correctness is slowly chipping away at the First Amendment. Cite? Give an example of a 1st Amendment right you’ve lost to “political correctness.” This particular case doesn’t have shit to do with the 1st Amendment, it’s about what schools have a right to restrict on school property. The Supreme Court has already ruled that students do not have absolute 1st Amendment rights in school, so this “left wing political correctness” angle is complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/119 "2009-05-04T14:31:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This particular case doesn’t have shit to do with the 1st Amendment, it’s about what schools have a right to restrict on school property. The Supreme Court has already ruled that students do not have absolute 1st Amendment rights in school, so this “left wing political correctness” angle is complete bullshit. In the name of “safety” don’t kids on school grounds basically have no rights at the moment? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915/120 "2009-05-04T15:01:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite? Give an example of a 1st Amendment right you’ve lost to “political correctness.” The right to display symbols of the Confederacy on public school property. > [@](#): > > This particular case doesn’t have shit to do with the 1st Amendment, it’s about what schools have a right to restrict on school property. The Supreme Court has already ruled that students do not have absolute 1st Amendment rights in school, so this “left wing political correctness” angle is complete bullshit. So your answer to “first amendment rights are being eroded” is to point out that students don’t have any first amendment rights in the first place? And that’s a good thing? Is it just because they’re under 18 or what? Would you accept arbitrary restrictions on your speech and expression? What if 50 years from now it’s backwards: It is just as unpopular in 2059 to NOT be a racist as it is in 2009 to BE a racist. Would you support restricting students’ rights to wear “I’m black and I’m proud” t-shirts and “Equality” bumper stickers due to them inciting anger and not being ‘civil’? Or is that some sort of straw man? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-school-be-allowed-to-ban-a-confederate-flag-decal-on-a-students-truck/494915.md?page=7)