# Should a student be downgraded for mentioning I.D. on a biology test? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 13, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878 "2007-12-13T17:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/21 "2007-12-13T19:19:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] A student at the college where I work is challenging the grade she received for her biology final. **Her version** is that she was asked to explain a certain premise about the relationship between beneficial mutation and evolutionary change on her final. According to the student, she answered the question thoroughly and, according to the book and her notes, accurately, explaining the whole “mutation + heredity + benefit = more offspring” etc. (I know I’m oversimplifying) and that the professor said she answered the question well, except for a final two sentence or so blip that read something to the effect of: “Though it is the standard scientific theory, various issues of evolution remain unexplained and or controversial. For this reason, many people believe that the process is divinely inspired and directed.” [/QUOTE] That she felt it necessary to include those two sentences implies that she is one of those “many people”. And, in my experience, such people really do not fully understand how natural selection works, much less evolution in general. Thus, I remain skeptical that she did, in fact, answer the question fully and completely and was downgraded solely because of her closing remarks. If the situation is as she described it, however, then the downgrading was likely uncalled for. The remarks were unneccessary, and do nothing to “complete” the answer, or make it more correct. But they don’t detract from an allegedly correct answer, either. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/22 "2007-12-13T19:25:10Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] This answer would be more like writing “space aliens killed Lincoln” on the test. [/QUOTE] He’s onto us. Wipe his memory. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/23 "2007-12-13T20:33:31Z")
I think what the prof did was fair. It was an irrelevent statement in a college exam, and he can mark points off for that. It is bullshit for her to challenge the question. I hope he stands his ground. This is the pebble before the avalanche and if she learns she can get a grade changed by whining about it his life will be over - every student who gets a grade they don’t think is fair will challenge him. With helicopter parents already calling college profs about their kids’ grades, I don’t see this getting any better. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/24 "2007-12-13T20:38:55Z")
Forget anything religious about it. Not putting irrelevant information into scientific essays is as much a skill as putting in all the relevant information. She should have been docked for a poorly written essay. How clever was she about it, though? Really, just the content of what she wrote could have been written by someone on either side of the issue, no? I wouldn’t expect a person who poo-poo’s I.D. to put that statement (or an approximation thereof) on there, but if they did, it’s just as irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/25 "2007-12-13T21:25:29Z")
It is irrelevant, and she should have been docked for it. The points she lost will drive home the lesson. Cutting her slack for adding in fluff about an imaginary process will only encourage more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/26 "2007-12-13T21:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] That she felt it necessary to include those two sentences implies that she is one of those “many people”. [/QUOTE] Oh she is- no doubt about that. I’m told from another student in the class that she was one of two or three students who brought up I.D. notions (“this peer reviewed Chick pamphlet says…”) several times in class, so the prof was already aggravated with her. I don’t know if she’d specifically been told to “drop it”, but even the student admits it was a “neener neener” of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/27 "2007-12-13T22:03:34Z")
PS- I think the professor took off about 4 or 5 points. It dropped her from a B (she had around an 82) to a high C and she says that lowered her course grade from an A to B as well. {reiterated disclaimer: I only have the student’s side} ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/28 "2007-12-13T22:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > “Though it is the standard scientific theory, various issues of evolution remain unexplained and or controversial. For this reason, many people believe that the process is divinely inspired and directed.” As far as I’m concerned, this statement is objectively incorrect. The majority of people who believe that evolution is divinely inspired and directed don’t believe that because of gaps in the evolutionary theory - they believe it because the bible says that God created the earth and everthing that’s on it. It’s not a scientific deduction; it’s an excuse, and it doesn’t belong anywhere near a biology class. If she’s brought ID up in the class room before, she shuold have known exactly how “neener neener” would be received. Maybe losing some points and dropping a letter grade will help her learn that being an obnoxious twit can have consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/29 "2007-12-13T22:25:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Oh she is- no doubt about that. I’m told from another student in the class that she was one of two or three students who brought up I.D. notions (“this peer reviewed Chick pamphlet says…”) several times in class, so the prof was already aggravated with her. I don’t know if she’d specifically been told to “drop it”, but even the student admits it was a “neener neener” of sorts. [/QUOTE] And yet is surprised when the prof “neener neeners” back. I know many of us just told Airman Doors that you can disagree with a Prof on an essay test - but you really shouldn’t be STUPID when you do it. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/30 "2007-12-13T22:40:24Z")
I agree with those who say she should be docked for including irrelevant information in her answer. It’s not the same thing as doodling in the margins, while that would be inappropriate as well. Also, no one should be allowed to pass biology if they believe in I.D. If you believe in that, you don’t understand the basic concepts of science and no reputable institution should let that pass. ---
**Author:** ![UncaStuart](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncastuart/32/404_2.png) [@UncaStuart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncaStuart)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/31 "2007-12-13T23:13:02Z")
[QUOTE=Enginerd] As far as I’m concerned, this statement is objectively incorrect. The majority of people who believe that evolution is divinely inspired and directed don’t believe that because of gaps in the evolutionary theory - they believe it because the bible says that God created the earth and everthing that’s on it. It’s not a scientific deduction; it’s an excuse, and it doesn’t belong anywhere near a biology class. [/QUOTE] I’m in total agreement with **Enginerd** that the statement is objectively incorrect. Therefore, points taken off are justified. ---
**Author:** ![jk1245](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/32 "2007-12-13T23:20:25Z")
I think a few points off is legit, especially in a science class, as ID is hardly a scientific concept. From a strictly essay writing perspective, I think docking points is valid as well. You can’t make a statement like “various issues of evolution remain unexplained and or controversial” without at least outlining those issues. Essay exams are like being interviewed by the police. Answer concisely and STFU, as the more you talk the more trouble you get yourself in. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/33 "2007-12-14T00:10:01Z")
Where is everyone getting that this was an essay, rather than a short-answer type of thing? A question about natural selection can easily be answered succinctly in a paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/34 "2007-12-14T00:10:57Z")
Dock the points and keep the “irrelevant” comment. She provided a very unscientific answer to a science question, showing that she’s not really getting anything out of the course. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/35 "2007-12-14T00:13:19Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Where is everyone getting that this was an essay, rather than a short-answer type of thing? A question about natural selection can easily be answered succinctly in a paragraph. [/QUOTE] Well, if she dedicated two whole sentences in a short answer question to I.D., then she should certainly get docked as irrelevant. I’m getting that its an essay from this being presented as an aside. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/36 "2007-12-14T00:22:39Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Where is everyone getting that this was an essay, rather than a short-answer type of thing? A question about natural selection can easily be answered succinctly in a paragraph. [/QUOTE] From the OP: [Quote=Sampiro] For this, according to the student, the professor deducted several points from the essay, writing that it was “completely irrelevant to the answer” [/quote] Also, **Sampiro** , what kind of a gruelling school calls an 82 a “B”? In my world, that’s always been an A-. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/37 "2007-12-14T00:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead] Also, **Sampiro** , what kind of a gruelling school calls an 82 a “B”? In my world, that’s always been an A-. [/QUOTE] Really? Growing up, that would have been a B-. The cutoff between B+ and A- was always 90% when I was a kid. Once you’re in college, the scale varies with every class and every professor, so I wouldn’t put much stock in any relation between a number and letter here. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/38 "2007-12-14T00:39:01Z")
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead] Also, **Sampiro** , what kind of a gruelling school calls an 82 a “B”? In my world, that’s always been an A-. [/QUOTE] An 82 is an A-? Jesus, man! Please forward me information on your school, because I would like to attend. An 82 at my school (and I believe every other school in the CSU system) is a B-. To get an A-, you have to have 90% +. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/39 "2007-12-14T01:09:26Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] This answer would be more like writing “space aliens killed Lincoln” on the test. [/QUOTE] But if you began by writing the correct answer and ended with “but I think it was space aliens.” You’ve learned the facts that the teacher wanted to impart and you’ve shown that you can come up with that information on request. That you’re a complete loon shouldn’t have an effect on your grade. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878/40 "2007-12-14T01:25:18Z")
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead] From the OP: Also, **Sampiro** , what kind of a gruelling school calls an 82 a “B”? In my world, that’s always been an A-. [/QUOTE] The OP also says “deducted several points”, which was later revised to “4 or 5”. One person’s essay is another’s short answer. This sounds like a general biology class, wherein I highly doubt a treatise on evolution is going to make up a major part of the final. Hell, I never had essays in my actual evolution classes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-a-student-be-downgraded-for-mentioning-i-d-on-a-biology-test/429878.md?page=3)