# Should aborting a fetus with Down Syndrome be illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444 "2017-12-13T22:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/41 "2017-12-14T20:50:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Abortion is one of those things that society is OK with as long as you don’t give a reason. > > “I’m aborting because I don’t want a boy/girl” = you’re sexist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be biracial” = you’re racist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be gay (assuming such a test were possible)” = you’re homophobic. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be disabled” = you’re ableist. > > “I’m aborting because…it’s my choice and I do what I want with my body” = “Yippee, good for you!” Good points! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/42 "2017-12-14T20:53:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Abortion is one of those things that society is OK with as long as you don’t give a reason. If abortion access is a right, you don’t need a reason to exercise it other than you want to. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/43 "2017-12-15T01:30:45Z")
Ever seen a baby with alobar holoprosencephaly? (Warning: do NOT google unless you have a very strong stomach.) Some parents insist on having kids with some very severe birth defects, where the kid does nothing but suffer 24/7/365. Look up Matthew Manuel Nel. This kid, who has been dubbed a “miracle” by his parents, suffers from holoprosencephaly, epilepsy, cleft lip, and diabetes. He does nothing but seize, choke, gag, and vomit. He can’t sleep more than an hour at a time, his temperature is unable to regulate, and he’s on a respirator. Imagine a life like that. A life where you do nothing but lie in pain all day, you constantly gasp for breath, you’re always seizing and vomiting, you can’t even sleep to get away from the pain. But he’s a miracle. I know he’s their son, and I know they love him. But they’re torturing that poor thing. This is the next step. > [@Velocity](#): > > Abortion is one of those things that society is OK with as long as you don’t give a reason. > > “I’m aborting because I don’t want a boy/girl” = you’re sexist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be biracial” = you’re racist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be gay (assuming such a test were possible)” = you’re homophobic. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be disabled” = you’re ableist. > > “I’m aborting because…it’s my choice and I do what I want with my body” = “Yippee, good for you!” Quite frankly, if people give those reasons for having an abortion, they’re probably better off NOT being a parent. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/44 "2017-12-15T03:04:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Abortion is one of those things that society is OK with as long as you don’t give a reason. > > “I’m aborting because I don’t want a boy/girl” = you’re sexist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be biracial” = you’re racist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be gay (assuming such a test were possible)” = you’re homophobic. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be disabled” = you’re ableist. > > “I’m aborting because…it’s my choice and I do what I want with my body” = “Yippee, good for you!” There’s lots of reasons for getting an abortion that pro-choice people are, in general, okay with. “I don’t want a child,” is right at the top. “I can’t afford a child,” and “This child would have fatal birth defects if brought to term,” are also good ones. I’m also “okay” with the reasons you listed here, in the sense that I don’t think they’re grounds for denying someone access to an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/45 "2017-12-15T05:09:39Z")
“Illegal” isn’t the word I’d use. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/46 "2017-12-15T05:24:21Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > “Illegal” isn’t the word I’d use. Want to elaborate on that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/47 "2017-12-15T05:30:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It may be correct for this particular law, but the goal would be to have this woman charged with murder. And of course they’ll try to make a requirement that a doctor can’t perform an abortion with first testing the woman for Downs, followed by all other detectable conditions, before finally banning abortion altogether. Every law limiting abortion is intended as a step towards making all abortions illegal. I can’t find the text of the bill, but according to [this article:](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ohio-abortion/ohio-passes-law-barring-abortion-over-down-syndrome-diagnosis-idUSKBN1E736O) > [@](#): > > Lawmakers voted 20-12 in favor of the law, which criminalizes abortion if the physician has knowledge that the procedure is being sought due to a diagnosis of Down syndrome, a genetic disorder caused when abnormal cell division results in an extra full or partial copy of chromosome 21. > > Doctors would lose their medical licenses in the state and face a fourth-degree felony charge under the law if they were to perform an abortion with that knowledge. Mothers would not face criminal charges. Still leaves open the question of how one determines why the doctor agreed to perform the abortion, but the women are not targeted by this bill. That seems to be the norm for such proposed laws. ETA: You can find the text [here,](https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-documents?id=GA131-HB-135) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/48 "2017-12-15T05:39:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t find the text of the bill, but according to [this article:](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ohio-abortion/ohio-passes-law-barring-abortion-over-down-syndrome-diagnosis-idUSKBN1E736O) > > Still leaves open the question of how one determines why the doctor agreed to perform the abortion, but the women are not targeted by this bill. That seems to be the norm for such proposed laws. > > ETA: You can find the text [here,](https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-documents?id=GA131-HB-135) It’s the norm for such laws because they’d have no support otherwise. But that’s not what the anti-abortion crowd has in mind. They believe abortion is murder and have no way to justify allowing women to be an accessory murder without suffering any consequences. They don’t need one either, because that’s not their intention. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/49 "2017-12-15T05:45:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s the norm for such laws because they’d have no support otherwise. But that’s not what the anti-abortion crowd has in mind. They believe abortion is murder and have no way to justify allowing women to be an accessory murder without suffering any consequences. They don’t need one either, because that’s not their intention. So the goal isn’t to charge women with murder? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/50 "2017-12-15T05:54:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So the goal isn’t to charge women with murder? No, it is. It’s not their current stated intention, but that’s a lie. There’s no moderate anti-abortion movement. Every one of these measures is intended as a step to making all abortions illegal, and charging women and their doctors with murder. Just listen to them, they don’t say “abortion is a minor fourth degree felony”, they say “abortion is murder”, and they mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/51 "2017-12-15T06:28:42Z")
Sort of hinges on if you think these questions impinge on the rights of one person or two. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/52 "2017-12-15T11:54:11Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Sort of hinges on if you think these questions impinge on the rights of one person or two. Agree. If the woman has a SO, there would be two people in the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/53 "2017-12-15T12:08:28Z")
So shall I mark you down as “undecided” then? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/54 "2017-12-15T15:46:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Abortion is one of those things that society is OK with as long as you don’t give a reason. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If abortion access is a right, you don’t need a reason to exercise it other than you want to. Many things are legal - and should remain so - that most of us would agree are morally wrong. Aborting a fetus because you’re unhappy about its sex? Yeah, most of us wouldn’t think that was cool at all. But should a woman have the _right_ to do so? Absolutely. A woman should have the right to abort before viability for any reason, or for no reason at all. It’s called ‘choice.’ _Her_ choice. But the rest of us have the right to our opinions about the choices other people make. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/55 "2017-12-15T17:52:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Many things are legal - and should remain so - that most of us would agree are morally wrong. > > Aborting a fetus because you’re unhappy about its sex? Yeah, most of us wouldn’t think that was cool at all. But should a woman have the _right_ to do so? Absolutely. A woman should have the right to abort before viability for any reason, or for no reason at all. It’s called ‘choice.’ _Her_ choice. > > But the rest of us have the right to our opinions about the choices other people make. And your rights to those opinions is not even slightly in doubt, and I’m not sure when it was otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/56 "2017-12-16T09:37:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t find the text of the bill, but according to [this article:](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ohio-abortion/ohio-passes-law-barring-abortion-over-down-syndrome-diagnosis-idUSKBN1E736O) > > > [@](#): > > > > Lawmakers voted 20-12 in favor of the law, which criminalizes abortion if the physician has knowledge that the procedure is being sought due to a diagnosis of Down syndrome, a genetic disorder **caused when abnormal cell division** results in an extra full or partial copy of chromosome 21. > > > > Doctors would lose their medical licenses in the state and face a fourth-degree felony charge under the law if they were to perform an abortion with that knowledge. Mothers would not face criminal charges. > > Still leaves open the question of how one determines why the doctor agreed to perform the abortion, but the women are not targeted by this bill. That seems to be the norm for such proposed laws. > > ETA: You can find the text [here,](https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-documents?id=GA131-HB-135) **bolding** mine \ Sometimes Down Syndrome is not the result of abnormal cell division in the present generation. Ring chromosomes and other genetic weirdness can occur in prior generations resulting in a heritable form of DS in which the cell division was normal in the present generation. IMHO it would prove near impossible to actually prove the timing of the genetic event which caused Down Syndrome making the law, as written, unenforceable even if it were somehow constitutional - which its not. \ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/57 "2017-12-16T15:40:36Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > **bolding** mine > \ > Sometimes Down Syndrome is not the result of abnormal cell division in the present generation. Ring chromosomes and other genetic weirdness can occur in prior generations resulting in a heritable form of DS in which the cell division was normal in the present generation. > > IMHO it would prove near impossible to actually prove the timing of the genetic event which caused Down Syndrome making the law, as written, unenforceable even if it were somehow constitutional - which its not. > \ OK, but I’m not sure how that would apply to the law. The part you bolded was from an article about the bill, not from the bill itself. Or am I missing the point you’re trying to make? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/58 "2017-12-17T03:36:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Want to elaborate on that? No. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/59 "2017-12-17T19:51:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Abortion is one of those things that society is OK with as long as you don’t give a reason. > > “I’m aborting because I don’t want a boy/girl” = you’re sexist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be biracial” = you’re racist. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be gay (assuming such a test were possible)” = you’re homophobic. > > “I’m aborting because the child will be disabled” = you’re ableist. > > “I’m aborting because…it’s my choice and I do what I want with my body” = “Yippee, good for you!” I don’t agree with this at all. Reasons usually fall into one of two categories: “I do not want a baby (right now / ever)” and “There is something about this specific baby that I do not want.” While most everyone who is pro-choice is totally comfortable with the former reason, the latter one can cause some angst. By saying “this particular person should not come into existence”, it challenges our sense of the equal worth and dignity of all people. As for me, I’d support the pro-choice perspective regardless of reason, but I would personally think much less of someone who aborted a fetus because of homosexuality or deafness or sex. I would be much more sympathetic to someone who aborted because of a severe genetic abnormality. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444/60 "2017-12-22T22:23:48Z")
[Story here.](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/22/health/ohio-governor-signs-down-syndrome-abortion-ban/index.html) > [@](#): > > Ohio is prohibiting doctors from performing abortions in cases where tests reveal the fetus has or likely has Down syndrome. > > Republican Gov. John Kasich signed the legislation Friday and the law goes into effect in 90 days. “The governor is pro-life and supports policies that protect the sanctity of life,” press secretary Jon Keeling tells CNN . Isn’t this up to the parents? If I were a pregnant mother knowing my baby would have Downs I would at least like the option to abort and try again for a child without the syndrome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aborting-a-fetus-with-down-syndrome-be-illegal/804444.md?page=4)