# Should abortions performed in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy be a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491 "2003-01-23T18:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/181 "2003-01-28T01:00:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*Again, if the pro-life movement doesn’t really accept the moral equivalency of new-born babies and of zygotes, embryos, and fetuses at all stages of pregnancy, why should the rest of us? But of course all that rhetoric about tens of millions of “dead babies” is central to the pro-life movement’s identity. \*\* Nice cheap shot. I’ll try one more time… Why does it matter if there is nothing currently analogous in law to deal with a singlular act like abortion? No one is arguing that it is manslaughter. Manslaughter was provided as an example of a different prosecution (from premeditated murder) for the violation of the same basic right–the right to live. > [@](#): > > \*\*If the law admits that the status of the unborn “victim” is always sufficiently unclear that deliberately paying someone to kill your Z/E/F doesn’t show “wanton disregard for human life”, then the law admits that there IS a moral distinction between new-born babies and zygotes, embryos, and fetuses. \*\*The law should NOT admit that the status of the unborn victim is ALWAYS sufficiently unclear. It needn’t admit that it is unclear at all. It need only contemplate the possibility that it may be unclear to a given individual, and take that fact into consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/182 "2003-01-28T01:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*My reasons really aren’t anyone’s business but mine and my doctor’s. > > It goes beyond inconvenience. Far beyond. To the point that I will not risk the damage to my health that pregnancy will do. \*\* Well yes, if a pregnancy can endanger the health of a woman, then even most of us pro-lifers see the necessity of an abortion. Kind of a lesser of the two evils, so to speak. But tell me, say, like in one of those old movies, I get a knock on the door, I open it up, and nobody is there, but when I look down, a baby in a basket is at my feet. Can I just throw it in the trash and let it starve? I mean, if I don’t want to spend my time and money to help it, nobody should have the right to force me to, right? If I don’t want to spend my time and money rasing it, or taking it to whatever government agency that would take it off my hands, then nobody should be able to force me to right? I mean, how I spend my time, and what I spend my money on, is nobody else’s business but my own, right? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/183 "2003-01-28T01:47:16Z")
Legally? There’s no law that I’m aware of (and please lawyers, correct me if I’m wrong) that can compel you to help someone else, regardless of that person’s age. Morally, it’s up to the person whose doorstep it is. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/184 "2003-01-28T01:57:05Z")
If I see someone choking, I’m not under the weight of law to do the Heimlich on them. Can’t be forced to do CPR if someone stops breathing in front of me. Why would their age matter? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/185 "2003-01-28T02:04:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*Legally? > > There’s no law that I’m aware of (and please lawyers, correct me if I’m wrong) that can compel you to help someone else, regardless of that person’s age. \*\* With all due respect, you are in error in that regard, according to American law. Look up the phrases “tort law” and “family law” in [this article](http://www.archindy.org/prolife/beckwithviolinist.htm) for details. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/186 "2003-01-28T02:20:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*No, that’s not exactly what Blalron was asking. The question was about burying tampons or pads and holding funerals. First, assuming that the woman knows that the expelled egg was indeed fertilized, why grieve and hold a funeral for it? \*\* I think there was a poorly written Zalman King film (one of his less racy ones) in which a teen girl does just this upon first having her cycle. It was supposed to be an example of the confusion brought about by budding sexuality and symbolize the way that sexuality has a more serious and somber element as opposed to the popular social aspects…or it was just crap, it’s Zalman King after all. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/187 "2003-01-28T02:33:53Z")
**JThunder** : And that still doesn’t contradict the point I made. If someone is having a heart attack, choking, or drowning in front of me, is there anything whatsoever that compels me to act to save that person, or will put me in prison if I don’t? A fetus certainly can’t sue me for a tort, and your family law example doesn’t say anything whatsoever about whether or not a person has to risk damaging their own health or losing their own life for another, even if it is one of their children. Of course, both the example in the tort law section and the family law section ignore the fact that in neither of those cases was the health and well being of the person who refused something affected by it. The leukemia story is touching and all, but I notice it doesn’t say that the mother (or father) could be compelled to give up their bone marrow. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/188 "2003-01-28T03:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\ ***JThunder** : > > And that still doesn’t contradict the point I made.\*\* Well first of all, it does contradict your claim that the law can never force you to aid someone else. Moreover, since you yourself professed ignorance of the applicable laws, I would not be so hasty to re-assert that claim. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If someone is having a heart attack, choking, or drowning in front of me, is there anything whatsoever that compels me to act to save that person, or will put me in prison if I don’t?\*\* Did you even bother to read that article? According to tort law, you CAN be held responsible, depending on the specific circumstances. The case is even more stringent where family dependents are involved, since family law recognizes that parents have particular and unusually high responsibilities toward their own offspring. > [@](#): > > \*\* > A fetus certainly can’t sue me for a tort, \*\* So as long as don’t get sued – as long as you can get away with it – you consider your actions to be justified? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > and your family law example doesn’t say anything whatsoever about whether or not a person has to risk damaging their own health or losing their own life for another, even if it is one of their children.\*\* Need I remind you that YOU are the one claiming that the law can not force you to aid someone else? If you’re going to persist in this claim, it is sufficient to show that this is not necessarily the case. Now, if an infant is drowning in a river, are you saying that the parent should be allowed to let the child die, simply because the parent _MIGHT_ be harmed by the waters? Granted, there are extreme cases where the river is too dangerous to even attempt a rescue; however, the vast majority of pregnancies are nothing like that. Not even close. Moreover, note the specific phrasing in the article I cited. The court ruled that “The parent . . . may not deprive a child of life-saving treatment, **however well-intentioned**.” Even having the laudable intent of avoiding harm to oneself is not sufficient grounds for killing an innocent human being. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/189 "2003-01-28T03:07:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*Legally? > > There’s no law that I’m aware of (and please lawyers, correct me if I’m wrong) that can compel you to help someone else, regardless of that person’s age. Morally, it’s up to the person whose doorstep it is. \*\* Anybody knows, if someone found a baby in the trash, called the cops, they traced it back to me, and I said I put it in there because I didn’t want to deal with it, you’d better believe they’d lead me away in cuffs and I’d have to face trial. And the cops and the criminal justice system would be justified in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/190 "2003-01-28T08:46:36Z")
Il Topo Well, you could hardly beat me over the head with a real fetus, could you? I realize, of course, that it’s all in the great tradition of in-your-face, all-or-nothing, evangelization. Either it’s a ‘mass of tissue’ or it’s a ‘human person’, termination is either trivial or it’s pre-meditated, first degree murder, either it’s abortion so one can wear a bikini, or it’s a ‘holocaust’… Thing is, it could be neither. I don’t have to accept the terms of the argument that you have set up (rather reminds me of Christian Evangelists and their infamous ‘trilemma’, actually). ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/191 "2003-01-28T08:48:18Z")
Joel See my response to il Topo. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/192 "2003-01-28T14:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > **Well, you could hardly beat me over the head with a real fetus, could you?** Oh. I thought you were trying to make a deeper point that was escaping me. I should have taken your comment at face value. > [@](#): > > \*\*I don’t have to accept the terms of the argument that you have set up. \*\* What terms do you prefer? Let’s discuss them, if you want. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/193 "2003-01-28T14:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > So as long as don’t get sued – as long as you can get away with it – you consider your actions to be justified? Pay closer attention. I said I’d abort whether it was legal or not. In my mind, my drive to preserve my own health, physical and mental, outweigh any legal obligation you think I might have. That legal obligation is still only the matter of opinion of you and a pro-life author. > [@](#): > > Even having the laudable intent of avoiding harm to oneself is not sufficient grounds for killing an innocent human being. It is to me, and as long as it’s harm to **me** we’re talking about, it’s my decision. When it’s you risking harm to yourself, you get a choice. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/194 "2003-01-28T15:01:26Z")
il Topo Terms that do not yell, as if through a megaphone, absolutes? Or would that be inherently problematical? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/195 "2003-01-30T03:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*Pay closer attention. I said I’d abort whether it was legal or not. \*\* No, you said more than that. Your exact words were, > [@](#): > > A fetus certainly can’t sue me for a tort, … the clear implication being that the fetus’ inability to sue is somehow relevant to this debate. > [@](#): > > \*\* > In my mind, my drive to preserve my own health, physical and mental, outweigh any legal obligation you think I might have. That legal obligation is still only the matter of opinion of you and a pro-life author. > \*\* With all due respect, you clearly were not paying attention. The pro-life author in question cited _a real world court case_, illustrating how tort law is applied. This is far more than just a pro-life author, offering some opinion. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It is to me, and as long as it’s harm to **me** we’re talking about, it’s my decision. When it’s you risking harm to yourself, you get a choice. \*\* Not according to the law. The law does NOT allow individuals to kill other people, merely to escape harm to themselves. Surely you were aware of that. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/196 "2003-01-30T03:49:55Z")
And it was a case that didn’t relate to abortion. Specifically the law where I live is that if I am in ‘reasonable fear’ of life or limb, I am justified in using lethal self defense. Is it different where you live? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/197 "2003-01-30T07:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > **And it was a case that didn’t relate to abortion.** Be that as it may, it still disproves your _specific_ claim that nobody can be legally commanded to help someone else. You’re the one who make the claim, and used it to defend abortion. I’m merely pointing out that your claim is inconsistent with tort law and family law. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/198 "2003-01-30T07:08:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\* > Specifically the law where I live is that if I am in ‘reasonable fear’ of life or limb, I am justified in using lethal self defense. Is it different where you live? \*\* Merely being pregnant does not constitute “reasonable fear” of life or limb. As you know full well, the vast majority of pregnancies are not life-threatening, by any stretch of the imagination. Now, if a pregnancy WERE genuinely life-threatening, then even the majority of pro-lifers would endorse abortion if it were the only way to save the mother’s life. Unfortunately, a common pro-choice argument is to say, “Well, _some_ pregnancies result in death. Ergo, the mothers should feel free to have an abortion.” That’s like saying that _some_ black people are murderers, so one should be allowed to take pre-emptive strikes against black people in general. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/199 "2003-01-30T15:05:24Z")
**Catsix** - Joel said: > [@](#): > > But tell me, say, like in one of those old movies, I get a knock on the door, I open it up, and nobody is there, but when I look down, a baby in a basket is at my feet. **Can I just throw it in the trash** and let it starve? I mean, if I don’t want to spend my time and money to help it, nobody should have the right to force me to, right? And you replied > [@](#): > > Legally? > > There’s no law that I’m aware of (and please lawyers, correct me if I’m wrong) that can compel you to help someone else, regardless of that person’s age. Morally, it’s up to the person whose doorstep it is. You are missing the point. In his hypothetical Joel wasn’t merely denying help. He was actively taking steps to kill the newborn. It’s “up to the person whose doorstep it is” whether or not he takes care of the newborn or takes it to a shelter. However, that person _never_ has the right to throw it in the trash. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/200 "2003-01-30T15:46:59Z")
**JThunder** : And those arguments all assume that the fetus is a person with the same legal standing as other persons. That is not something that is currently accepted as fact, and it certainly isn’t something I believe. I have attempted to debate this from your point of view, that fetuses are babies, but quite honestly I don’t believe they are and the law doesn’t treat them as such, especially not in the first twelve weeks of gestation as the OP asked. I think your arguments fall apart where you have not yet proven your assumption that a twelve week old fetus is a person, with all the legal rights of one. > [@](#): > > **Ben Hicks** said: > You are missing the point. In his hypothetical Joel wasn’t merely denying help. He was actively taking steps to kill the newborn. It’s “up to the person whose doorstep it is” whether or not he takes care of the newborn or takes it to a shelter. However, that person never has the right to throw it in the trash. I never said anything about throwing it in the trash. I said it’s up to that person whether or not they _offer any help_. **Joel** is the only one who said anything about throwing a baby in the trash, which IMO doesn’t wash here, because it’s still an unproven assertation that the fetus has the rights a person has. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=11)