# Should abortions performed in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy be a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491 "2003-01-23T18:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/321 "2003-02-07T02:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*So what is your point in saying that the “anti-choice” movement comes largely from the “religious right”? Do you seriously believe that this stance should be rejected based on the people who are advocating it? > \*\* Why sure! Aren’t you aware of the [hideous](http://www.civilrights.org/research_center/civilrights101/religion.html) things that religious groups have been trying to [impose](http://www.archatl.com/gabulletin/1965/650311b.html) on socety?..breaking the law, all kinds of shit!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/322 "2003-02-07T02:34:31Z")
Hey Beagle Why not post some links to Polynesian animist groups, or some UFO cult? About as relevant to the argument as finding out some nice liberal Christians in order to attempt to refute the fact that the movers and shakers in the anti-choice movement are the reactionary sects. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/323 "2003-02-07T02:36:12Z")
Y’know, it just occurred to me… the majority of orphanages and soup kitchens in the USA are operated by religious organizations. Ghastly! Clearly, that shows how evil orphanages and soup kitchens must be. And what about those people who intervene in cases of child abuse? That’s really none of their business, is it? Unlike the parents, they are not _personally_ affected, and so the final decision is not theirs to make. And ditto for those evil, evil Northerners who campaigned against slavery – even though slavery was a distinctly Southern practice. If **catsix** is right, then those decisions should have been kept out of their hands; after all, it was really none of their business! ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/324 "2003-02-07T02:52:13Z")
With enough smoke and mirrors, you might even convince yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/325 "2003-02-07T03:01:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Hey Beagle > > Why not post some links to Polynesian animist groups, or some UFO cult? > > About as relevant to the argument as finding out some nice liberal Christians in order to attempt to refute the fact that the movers and shakers in the anti-choice movement are the reactionary sects. \*\* So…what, you lied when you said you don’t click links “posted by strange men”? Giggle. Hmm “nice liberal Christians”…well that second link is about priests and others from the the Roman Catholic churches in Georgia…of course the RCC had a significant presence in plenty of other peace & justice issues in the past century (JT mentioned a few) Guess which religious organization has the largest pro life presence in the U.S.? Whoops! :eek: Thanks for the affirmation!! ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/326 "2003-02-07T05:44:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*J Thunder > > My point in talking about the religious right has to do with my having raised the question of a whole social agenda (do try to follow the bouncing ball). > \*\* And so your point is that the religious right has a social agenda? That this somehow invalidates their stance on abortion? Guess we can disregard what NARAL, Planned Parenthood and NOW say about abortion, then. After all, they have a whole social agenda of their own. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I suggest that, if you want to play with logical fallacies, you try with somebody other than a Phil grad. \*\* That’s interesting. Based on our discussion so far, I have no reason to back down. Besides, don’t think I haven’t noticed that your answer fails to negate the fallacy in question. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/327 "2003-02-07T05:49:43Z")
BTW, the civil rights movement was also driven by American [churches](http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/civilrights/players.htm). Does the name “ **Reverend** Martin Luther King, Jr.” ring a bell? So if a cause is championed by people of a religous stripe – if this is part of their “social agenda,” as **candida** describes it – should we really conclude that this is an act of evil? I had no idea that Reverend King was such a vile, detestable individual. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/328 "2003-02-07T05:54:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*With enough smoke and mirrors, you might even convince yourselves. \*\* Well, I’d rather be convinced by your arguments. So, where IS that evidence that deformed individuals are committing suicide _en masse_? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/329 "2003-02-07T07:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Joel > > Oh come on! > > What we have here are two sides, neither of which accepts the basic assumptions of the other, going through the rituals. > > Meanwhile: > > \*Q: Is it an American obsession? > > A: Yes > > Q: Are most of the main protagonists of the anti-choice movement from the American religious right? > > A: Yes > > Q: Is it a knee-jerk reaction? > > A: No, it’s jaw-jerk reaction comprising of hectoring women about us having a right to determine our own outcomes.\* > > PS - hitting me over the head with a metaphorical fetus doesn’t work. \*\* Wow, you read what I, JThunder, and the others right, and **completely** ignore our arguments. You’re more interested in character assasination then a thoughtfull debate of the issue. It’s pretty obvious that it’s useless trying to carry on a civilized discussion with you. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/330 "2003-02-07T07:42:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*When you’re not personally affected, you don’t get to make the final decision. > > Got it yet? \*\* The unborn child is personally affected by your decision to abort it. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/331 "2003-02-07T07:45:01Z")
Woops, and in two threads above this one “Wow, you read what I, JThunder, and the others right…” should be “Wow, you read what I, JThunder, and the others write…” ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/332 "2003-02-07T07:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Turn your back so that I can do the thing I can live with. > > Turning my back may not be something _I_ can live with. > \*\* Clap, clap, clap. Don’t ever turn your back on innocents who are too helpless to defend themselves. There was a time when slaveowners wanted people to turn a blind eye to slavery. This was, after all, the easier and more attractive option to them. Thankfully, the emancipationists felt otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/333 "2003-02-07T08:38:13Z")
Beagle RCC - you mean the Roman Catholic Church? The Roman Catholic Church and human rights? Wow! You mean the Roman Catholic Church of hundreds of years of murderous repression fame? You mean the “no birth control” Roman Catholic Church? ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/334 "2003-02-07T08:45:06Z")
Thunder Do, do try to follow the argument - the point I was making about the religious right was that ‘abortion’ is just part of the ‘control of women’ aspect of the social agenda. Of course, pro-choice people have a social agenda which you despise as much as I despise that of the religious right, I understand that. As to the logical fallacy, from what I’ve seen of you, so far, I don’t expect you to understand pretty much of anything. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/335 "2003-02-07T08:56:14Z")
Joel There is no thoughtful discussion, no ‘civilized’ discussion involved in preaching, hectoring and repeating, over and over and over again, “all the poor dead babies, with their teddies and little baby shoes” Is there the remotest possibility of you changing your mind? Of course not. Is there the remotest possibility of me changing mine? Of course not. Luckily, there’s no chance of you ever being able to impose your political agenda upon me. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/336 "2003-02-07T12:43:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Beagle > > RCC - you mean the Roman Catholic Church? > > The Roman Catholic Church and human rights? > > \*\* Well…yeah, the one you called, what was it? > [@](#): > > …some nice liberal Christians… :rolleyes: I’m still interested in knowing how you found out about those “nice liberal Christians” I was referring to earlier, if you “don’t click on links from strange men”. Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/337 "2003-02-07T13:20:12Z")
I thought I’d gained a kind of appreciation of your particular strangeness - mostly harmless. Not all members of a reactionary sect have to be personally reactionary or take its doctrines seriously, given the decline in the catholic birthrate, for example, it’s obvious that Roman Catholic women must take the pill ‘religiously’. It’s called cognitive dissonance, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/338 "2003-02-07T13:25:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Joel > > There is no thoughtful discussion, no ‘civilized’ discussion involved in preaching, hectoring and repeating, over and over and over again, “all the poor dead babies, with their teddies and little baby shoes” > > Is there the remotest possibility of you changing your mind? Of course not. Is there the remotest possibility of me changing mine? Of course not. > > Luckily, there’s no chance of you ever being able to impose your political agenda upon me. \*\* So trying to be a voice for those who have none, and trying to protect human life is a political agenda. Interesting, I never thought of it that way before. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/339 "2003-02-07T13:27:05Z")
And I still don’t. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/340 "2003-02-07T13:38:34Z")
Joel So, you don’t think seeking to control the lives and destinies of other people is political? Well, well, well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=18)