# Should abortions performed in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy be a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491 "2003-01-23T18:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/441 "2003-02-11T02:01:15Z")
> [@](#): > > In all seriousness, ever concider a hysterectomy? No, I never would’ve thought to consider that on my own. As someone who desires very strongly to never, ever have children or be pregnant, surgical sterilization by means guaranteed not to fail never entered my mind. \ Considered it? I’ve begged doctors to do it for me. I’d much prefer it to a tubal ligation because there’s no possibility it would fail. I have been laughed at, told I don’t know what I want, that as soon as I have a kid my attitude will change, and that I need to seek psychiatric treatment so I can learn to be more ‘maternal’ and like the idea of having a few kids. If I could get this done, I would do it **right now**. It’s another cog in the wheel of six’s belief that all adults should have the ultimate right to decide matters of their own reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/442 "2003-02-11T06:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Joel > > My point is that it doesn’t matter (and certainly does not matter in any way to me) what your _subjective_ position is. > > What does matter is what the effect of your position would be _objectively_ and that effect would be in line with reactionary political groups. > > Your suggestion that complaining about the imposition of morality is ridiculous is both trite and trivial. Citing a few laws that correspond to your moral position does not lead to the inevitable conclusion that all law should correspond to your moral position. Why should I want to live in a Christian theocracy, nevermind in a Joel-determined theocracy? \*\* Imposing **my** morals. My “reactionary political” morals. A “Joel-determined theocracy.” Whatever :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/443 "2003-02-11T07:03:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TonyJ \* > \*\*Of course there is a difference; the phrases and tone are not identical! There’s a little logical trickery going on here. If you add in the piece, “People who prostitute are whores,” then you have a logical equivalence that creates a major premise for a syllogism. Now if a minor premise came along that was governed by that major premise, then a conclusion could be made! > > So, apparently that’s what happened. Apparently you said that (1) emergency contraceptives are abortifacients, and (2) abortion is baby-killing. So you have your major premise, and along comes the case of Catsix (3), who’s had to use emergency contraceptives, is thus governed by the major premise, and becomes the minor premise. Follow it all the way and it becomes a simple syllogism concluding that Catsix is a babykiller. > > Is this what you meant to say? I doubt it! Does what you said imply this? Yes! \*\* Which I don’t deny. What I’m denying is that I called **catsix** a “baby killer,” as per her accusation. Her accusation clearly implies malicious intent – specifically, name-calling – which should not be inferred from the logical progression that you outlined. As you said, the phrase **and tone** are not identical! Not in the least. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/444 "2003-02-11T08:34:24Z")
Smiley’s don’t cut it Joel: 1. Yes, Joel, imposing your morals on me; 2. I didn’t say your “reactionary political” morals, I was saying that, _whatever_ your morals were, your demand to control my body paralleled that of reactionary groups; and 3. if you are demanding that your morality is reflected in law, it’s Joel-determination. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/445 "2003-02-11T13:36:13Z")
Saying that these are my morals is complete bull s\*\*t. Science proves that what’s in a woman’s body is human life. This isn’t some American right wing religious position, it’s a fact. Who are you, or anybody else to deny it a right to live? If anybody’s imposing morals, it’s you imposing your morals, on a helpless unborn child, who can’t defend itself. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/446 "2003-02-11T13:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Who are you, or anybody else to deny it a right to live? > If anybody’s imposing morals, it’s you imposing your morals, on a helpless unborn child, who can’t defend itself. Who are you, or anybody else, to tell me what has to happen to my uterus? I am not a walking incubator, **Joel**. You do not get to tell me I have to act like one because you believe what you do. And no, what you believe isn’t a fact. It’s your _belief_. Stating it over and over again here won’t make it a fact. > [@](#): > > As you said, the phrase and tone are not identical! Not in the least. They are to me. Why should I attempt to debate rationally with someone who has said even indirectly that I’m a baby killer? If you haven’t come right out with that direct of a sentence, the posts you have made indicate you believe that. It’s no less mean because you only think it and don’t say it out loud. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/447 "2003-02-11T13:53:43Z")
I’m sorry Joel but, as far as I’m concerned and I guess many others, hawking your moral position around waiting to be told what to do with it is precisely what you _are_ doing. Meanwhile, now you seem to have diverted from hitting me over the head with a metaphorical fetus to bring in ‘science’. I don’t want to shock you, Joel, but I didn’t actually need ‘science’ to tell me that a human being is created because, well, I don’t know how to tell you this but, it’s something mothers tend to discover. Thing is Joel, ‘science’ doesn’t actually tell me what value to put on that life at different stages, my _moral_ position does. Ooops, looking at your reply, it’s back to demanding that my moral position should be dictated by yours and, oh dear, then you’re back to hitting me with a metaphorical fetus again. Don’t bother, it doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/448 "2003-02-11T16:07:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TonyJ \* > **Just to play devil’s advocate, what’s wrong with a person doing anything to anything in and of their own body?** Absolutely nothing…as long as it’s not causing the death of another human being. > [@](#): > > **See, I use the “birth” threshold because at that point the child is most certainly not fully dependent on a mother and is separate from her.** That’s logical, but the child IS fully dependent on _somebody_, and unless we’re going to say that abortion is okay until a child is self-reliant, then this argument can’t really apply. > [@](#): > > **What I’m getting at is that if an unborn child can only exist by a mother, then that mother – carrying the burden of said child – should be able to govern it as she wills.** Why wouldn’t this ability to “govern” spill over into life _after_ birth? I mean, if the mom has no help from a father or anyone else, the child is still as much her responsibility after birth as it was prior to. > [@](#): > > **It’s a bit draconian toward the child, yes, but if the mother doesn’t want to bare it and no one wants to either, I don’t see why a mother should be forced to nurture it and bare it and give it up for adoption.** Again, why shouldn’t this luxary of choice be available to the mother after the birth of the child? What about the journey through the birth canal makes it any different to choose to abort the life of the fetus/child/baby/human later rather than earlier? > [@](#): > > **So if there’s a way to transfer the little bundle of cells to someone who wants it, then I’d go for that.** Absolutely! This is medical research to which I would be willing to donote large sums of money! This should solve most, if not all of the abortion issues. > [@](#): > > \*\*Of course, I wouldn’t give up the right to abort a life-threatening pregnancy. That must be guaranteed. \*\* This is a point that I might be willing to concede ONLY if we could ban all other forms of abortion that are performed for convenience. ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/449 "2003-02-11T16:23:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > **What’s relevant is that if a woman doesn’t want it in her own uterus, it doesn’t belong there.** Then that woman must take proactive measures to keep it from being there. Once it is, it’s too late. > [@](#): > > \*\*And who gets to decide whether her uterus is used as an inucbator? The woman whose uterus it is, or some legislative body who has nothing to lose? \*\* The woman gets to decide every day of her life not to become pregnant. It’s a simple concept – if you don’t want to become pregnant, don’t perform the actions that can cause you to become pregnant. Or, as you’ve stated elsewhere, make damned certain that there’s no possibility of pregnancy (i.e. tubal ligation, hysterectomy) by taking measures initially to keep that from happening. Once you do become pregnant, however, that legislative body has to step in and represent the best interests of the “other” human being living inside you for the same reasons that they represent the best interests of other people NOT living inside you. > [@](#): > > **Who are you, or anybody else, to tell me what has to happen to my uterus?** Nobody should tell you what you can and cannot do with your body for the 99% of your lifetime that another human being is not using it for his/her incubator. I’m appalled that you are having such a difficult time finding a physician that will appeal to your wishes and remove your uterus. I had no idea that this would be such a difficult ordeal. It does seem ironic, however, that so many doctors are willing to sacrifice a life at the mother’s wishes, but will not perform the procedure neccessary to guarantee that life will never have to be sacrificed in the future. What does that tell us about the medical community’s attitude toward saving lives? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/450 "2003-02-11T16:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*Why should I attempt to debate rationally with someone who has said even indirectly that I’m a baby killer? If you haven’t come right out with that direct of a sentence, the posts you have made indicate you believe that. It’s no less mean because you only think it and don’t say it out loud. \*\* To be fair, **both** sides have been pretty nastily demonized in this debate. Being lumped in with the “religious right” and characterized, if not in thought, at least in action with those who are women-hating bastards and want nothing more than to turn women into puppets of the males is pretty damn offensive to me. Being told my opinion doesn’t matter because I’m not a woman is pretty offensive(as well as untrue in a democracy). Being told that no matter what I do, how good my intentions are or how fair and equitable I try to be I’ll just cause more suffering and pain(by driving abortion underground) and more injustice is fairly offensive as well. I imagine if we were all in a room together there isn’t a single person with more than one or two comments in this thread who would have escaped a well-deserved sock in the jaw. There is no justification for your self-righteous stand on who you will and will not allow to converse with you based upon how they have treated you in this thread(though you may choose to terminate conversation based upon unjustified reasons of course). Take a look at how YOU, **catsix** , have demonized and marginalized those on the other side of the issue in this thread before you start throwing stones. There are no clean hands in this thread. Trying to claim moral high ground on basis of someone demonizing you falls flat when you’re every bit as guilty of demonizing as they are. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/451 "2003-02-11T17:38:21Z")
Aw, how awful, there are all these guys who want to control women’s lives for nice reasons and guys who want to control women’s lives for nasty reasons and the guys who want to do it for nice reasons don’t like being ‘demonized’ by it being pointed out that > [@](#): > > “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/452 "2003-02-11T17:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*‘science’ doesn’t actually tell me what value to put on that life at different stages, my _moral_ position does. \*\* Your “_moral_ position” seems to indicate that you place your value of another human being’s life (one that you are responsible for creating, I might add) somewhere below your value of convenience and choice. If that’s the case, I don’t think the term “demon” is being applied to the correct individuals, here. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/453 "2003-02-11T20:09:07Z")
Well, MAV, I suggest: 1. you read the statement of _my_ personal position I made in a recent reply to Joel; and 2. you check up some other _religious_ understandings of the nature of the fetus. As to your ‘demon’ suggestion, isn’t that a bit ‘soft’ coming from an anti-choicer? Surely you can do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/454 "2003-02-11T21:23:09Z")
1. I have read your statement of personal position. It seems to me that my analysis of your previous statement is accurate. 2. My religious understanding of the nature of a fetus is that it is viewed as a baby before it emerges from the womb as well as afterward. My “demon” suggestion came from your use of the term as it was applied to men, along with the pig-man analogy. Forgive me if my use of the term did not sufficiently emphasize my distaste for the aforementioned “moral position”, regardless of the people that ascribe to it. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/455 "2003-02-11T21:39:00Z")
MAV I’m sorry about your reading difficulties. As to the pig-man analogy, I’m afraid I was assuming a certain level of knowledge of popular liturature - it’s from Orwell’s Animal Farm and the pig/man equivalence has a meaning you will, of course, have missed, especially given your reading difficulties. The reason I suggested that you check out other religious concepts of abortion (including non-Christian) was to suggest that it’s quite possible to hold a different moral position (morally) to the one that is so obviously yours. Meanwhile, the knowledge that you will never and can never make my _moral_ judgements for me, or enforce your moral judgements upon me, is a matter of some delight - especially given your reading difficulties. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/456 "2003-02-12T00:15:44Z")
I’m not demonizing anyone. I’m simply telling you that nobody should have their body used as an incubator without their continued consent to that use. What consideration and recognition do you give to the effect on a woman’s health, physical and psychological, if forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want? From where does the moral authority you believe you have to force her to carry the pregnancy to term flow? ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/457 "2003-02-12T04:27:49Z")
Candida: I’m sorry that you cannot discuss the matter without boorishly repeating some sad attempt at passive-agressive, petty, insulting references to my reading abilities. I can think of no other reason that you’ve had to resort to attempting to insult my intelligence other than the grasping of straws because your stance is weak. If you’d like to discuss the matter at hand, please do so. Otherwise, I have no use for your comments about my intelligence. As for the few statements you made that actually had something to do with the topic, I’m not sure why I need to check out other religions concepts of abortion given that: a) my argument does not hinge upon the religious description of a baby b) my moral position does not hinge upon the religious description of a baby, and c) religion invokes additional emotionalism that can cause further distraction from the focus of the debate Luckily, I don’t have to worry about making your “moral judgements” for you in this case. With the strong popularity of the current conservative administration that will probably be appointing conservative justices to the bench, there’s a good chance the Supreme Court will do that for me sometime in the near future. God, I love this country! ---
**Author:** ![MAV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@MAV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAV)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/458 "2003-02-12T04:32:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > **I’m simply telling you that nobody should have their body used as an incubator without their continued consent to that use.** And I’m simply reiterating that once the incubation period has begun, it’s much too late to change one’s mind. > [@](#): > > **What consideration and recognition do you give to the effect on a woman’s health, physical and psychological, if forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want?** The same consideration I would give to someone who was paralyzed in a recreational accident. It’s not like either person in either scenario didn’t know the risks of consequences before they performed the action that caused them. > [@](#): > > \*\*From where does the moral authority you believe you have to force her to carry the pregnancy to term flow? \*\* It flows from the _common sense_ that the premeditated termination of the life of another human being is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/459 "2003-02-12T08:29:01Z")
MAV At last, somebody who is genuinely funny around here! I’m still sorry about your literacy problems and my having pointed them out so bluntly - you do seem to have more than something of a problem in that direction though, don’t you? It’s so hard, you know, when people don’t seem to be able to read what’s been written and get so silly about it. Nevermind, I’ll try to get something over to you. You see, MAV, you criticized my ‘moral’ position and arguments about ‘moral’ positions (quite what part of ‘I would not choose to have an abortion’ you didn’t understand I can’t imagine, your literacy problems again, I guess) and I said that it was possible to hold other moral positions, morally. See, nothing hard there, MAV, really. I’m afraid a Conservative Congress, Administration, Supreme Court - whatever - would still make _no difference whatsoever_ to any decision I might possibly make over abortion, MAV. Not one jot of difference. Sorry about that MAV, but there it is, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/460 "2003-02-12T14:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > And I’m simply reiterating that once the incubation period has begun, it’s much too late to change one’s mind. That’s your personal belief. Mine is different. I respect that you will make your choices based on your belief. Whether or not you show me the same courtesy, my decisions will be made by me, not by you. > [@](#): > > It’s not like either person in either scenario didn’t know the risks of consequences before they performed the action that caused them. It’s not like either person in either scenario should be denied the ability to correct the accident. That’s the purpose of medical treatment. > [@](#): > > It flows from the common sense that the premeditated termination of the life of another human being is simply wrong. Are you saying I don’t have common sense because I don’t believe a fetus is equivalent to a person? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=24)