# Should abortions performed in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy be a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491 "2003-01-23T18:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/121 "2003-01-26T20:14:03Z")
- I oppose people who know this is true. You didn’t notice the tekkie (different kind of tekkie) avoidance of the use of concepts such as ‘true’? Different argument, different place (with the potential endlessness of ‘truth’ and ‘meaning’ rowing). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/122 "2003-01-26T20:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*It’s that people who ‘know what the answer is’ have to be opposed. \*\* I oppose people who believe this is what the answer is regarding who should be opposed. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/123 "2003-01-26T20:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*- Did you note the Pope’s apology? > > Indeed I have, you’ll have to accept that the daughter of German Jewish refugees is not overly impressed.\*\* Indeed, I do so accept. All wrongs cannot be righted. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*- That is why I try > > - to argue abortion from a secular position. > > Far as I’m concerned, the origin of the ‘knowledge’ that people have that they know _the answer_ is irrelevant - knowledge does not legitimize itself by its pedigree. It’s that people who ‘know what the answer is’ have to be opposed. \*\* Are you an anarchist then? Or do you accept that a law can be justified or vilified based on a measurement of its consequences. How do we know _your_ measurement of the consequences, your answer, is right? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/124 "2003-01-26T20:19:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Hey, guess what? > > I’ve been around so long that I never follow links posted by strange men. > \*\* Thank you. That answers a lot of questions about your future participation on the Great Debates forum, where many “strangers” will be posting links to other web sites to buttress their point of view. Ummm Bob, can we get BURNER back? ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/125 "2003-01-26T20:20:28Z")
- I oppose people who believe this is what the answer is - regarding who should be opposed. That’s nice to know, I await the awesome consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/126 "2003-01-26T20:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Ummm Bob, can we get BURNER back? \*\* :shudder!: ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/127 "2003-01-26T20:23:20Z")
- Thank you. That answers a lot of questions about your future - participation on the Great Debates forum, where - many “strangers” will be posting links to other web sites to - buttress their point of view. Oh dear, I seem to have offended one of the Great Arbiters. candida shrinks back, horrified at having upset a Board God - or not. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/128 "2003-01-26T20:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*- I oppose people who believe this is what the answer is > > - regarding who should be opposed. > > That’s nice to know, I await the awesome consequences. \*\* Awesome consequences? What do you mean? We now believe the same things, our axioms are in sync, and balance has been restored to the Force. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/129 "2003-01-26T20:25:46Z")
- Awesome consequences? What do you mean? We now believe - the same things, our axioms are in sync, and balance has been - restored to the Force. Damn, I knew I should have taken the kids to the Clone prequel. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/130 "2003-01-26T20:27:27Z")
So, Candida, tell me if I’m wrong, but you seem to have a hatred for the pro-life movement, and apparently Catholics as well, which make up a large part of it, and feel like there’s absolutely no legitimacy to the pro-life movement, and that it’s a bunch of radicals shoving their morals in other peoples faces. Is that where you’re coming from? ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/131 "2003-01-26T20:29:31Z")
- Are you an anarchist then? Or do you accept that a law can - be justified or vilified based on a measurement of its - consequences. How do we know your measurement of the - consequences, your answer, is right? I’m a ‘Popperian’, if you know what that means, you’ll be able to work out my answer to your final question. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/132 "2003-01-26T20:32:32Z")
—In the same way, I agree with Frederica Mathewes-Green that “abortion should be illegal–in any civilization, laws protecting the weak from the strong belong to the irreducible core of justice”— Begs the question of course. Was Frederica MG a vegan? Or is it only some weak, to be arbitrarily decided upon by Frederica to be of moral consequence? —Well, a great many claim that it’s just a blob of cells, or a lump of tissue. That assertion, while extremely popular, is demonstrably wrong.— You know full well that most of the great many that assertion is not used for moving fetuses, but rather for the stages without a nervous system. Even then, the contention is simply that without a functioning nervous system, the being has no more moral status than any other blob of tissue, not simply that it isn’t shaped like a baby. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/133 "2003-01-26T20:34:09Z")
Joel - So, Candida, tell me if I’m wrong, but you seem to have a hatred for - the pro-life movement, and apparently Catholics as well, which - make up a large part of it, and feel like there’s absolutely no - legitimacy to the pro-life movement, and that it’s a bunch of - radicals shoving their morals in other peoples faces. Is that where - you’re coming from? I’m not good on ‘hate’, Joel, I’m really not and I’m not, at all, interested in discussing ‘morality’. If I was interested in doing so, I’d be doing so on a Phil Board or a (Jewish) Religion Board. I’m very bad on the subject of zealots and, given the context, I tire very quickly with being hit over the head with fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/134 "2003-01-26T20:36:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*- Thank you. That answers a lot of questions about your future > > - participation on the Great Debates forum, where > - many “strangers” will be posting links to other web sites to > - buttress their point of view. > > Oh dear, I seem to have offended one of the Great Arbiters. > > candida shrinks back, horrified at having upset a Board God - or not. \*\* Dave is one of our most reasonable debaters on the pro-life side of the abortion argument, if not the most reasonable. If you can’t make nice with him, that does say something about you, I think. BTW, “Popperian” means you are a proponent of the Blues Traveler philosophy, right? What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/135 "2003-01-26T20:38:28Z")
And I have a question for anyone to answer that’s kind of related. I thought about asking this as an individual thread, but it’s probably better if I ask it here. Talking about making abortion illegal got me thinking, which part of the constitution, article and paragraph, or whatever, gives women the “right to an abortion”? I know that the word abortion is mentioned nowhere in the constitution, so that “right” is apparently implied. So where is it implied? ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/136 "2003-01-26T20:39:59Z")
- If you can’t make nice with him, that does say something about - you, I think. Oh dear, I think I’ve missed my opportunity of being Ms Straight Dope 2003, I’m mortified. What do I have to do to be Ms Popularity? - BTW, “Popperian” means you are a proponent of the Blues - Traveler philosophy, right? What do I win? The right to look up epistemology and the philosophy and logic of science on Yahoo or Google. Report this post to a moderator | IP: ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/137 "2003-01-26T20:41:03Z")
- Report this post to a moderator | IP: Oooooh, looks like I’m in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/138 "2003-01-26T20:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Joel > > - So, Candida, tell me if I’m wrong, but you seem to have a hatred for > - the pro-life movement, and apparently Catholics as well, which > - make up a large part of it, and feel like there’s absolutely no > - legitimacy to the pro-life movement, and that it’s a bunch of > - radicals shoving their morals in other peoples faces. Is that where > - you’re coming from? > > I’m not good on ‘hate’, Joel, I’m really not and I’m not, at all, interested in discussing ‘morality’. If I was interested in doing so, I’d be doing so on a Phil Board or a (Jewish) Religion Board. > > I’m very bad on the subject of zealots and, given the context, I tire very quickly with being hit over the head with fetuses. \*\* It’s just that your posts seem to be filled with disdain for pro-lifers. And how can you argue for or against abortion without bringing up morality?..I believe that abortion is murder, but I don’t think that it’s wrong…??? The belief that abortion is murder is, by association, belief that abortion is morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/139 "2003-01-26T20:55:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by candida \* > \*\*Oh dear, I think I’ve missed my opportunity of being Ms Straight Dope 2003, I’m mortified. > > What do I have to do to be Ms Popularity? \*\*What do you mean? I love you more and more with each snide, disrespectful and needlessly hostile post. As far as I’m concerned, you’re still in the running. Mention my name at the ceremony. You’ll get a good seat. > [@](#): > > \*\*- BTW, “Popperian” means you are a proponent of the Blues > > - Traveler philosophy, right? What do I win? > > The right to look up epistemology and the philosophy and logic of science on Yahoo or Google. \*\*Yeah, right. I’m dying to undertsand what makes you tick. Any textbooks you’d recommend? > [@](#): > > \*\*Report this post to a moderator | IP: > > Oooooh, looks like I’m in trouble.\*\* Oh, you wish. You ain’t close to the most troubling poster we’ve seen, and I haven’t involved a mod yet. Keep trying, though. We’ve practically got a chatroom going here. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491/140 "2003-01-26T20:56:31Z")
- It’s just that your posts seem to be filled with disdain for pro-lifers. I’m sorry, one gets so tired with moral posturing and it probably shows. - And how can you argue for or against abortion without bringing - up morality? Very easily when one wants people to talk about ‘what kind of law, how would it be enforced’ and so on without being beaten about the head with metaphorical fetuses all the time. - …I believe that abortion is murder, but I don’t think that it’s - wrong…??? The belief that abortion is murder is, by - association, belief that abortion is morally wrong. Oh, you’ve left me under no doubt about your particular devotion to ‘loaded language’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-abortions-performed-in-the-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-be-a-crime/150491.md?page=8)