# Should ACLU defend Phelps daughter (child abuse, flag mutilation at military funeral) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768 "2007-07-06T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/1 "2007-07-06T19:32:28Z")
On an ACLU discussion group I belong to, I was made aware of this news item today: [Phelps Kin Charged With Child Abuse Over Anti-Gay Military Funeral Demo](http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/07/070607phelps.htm) ([www.365gay.com](http://www.365gay.com)) Shirley Phelps-Roper, daugher of Fred Phelps who is the head of the Topeka Westboro Baptist Church ([GodHatesFags.com](http://GodHatesFags.com)), was arrested last month in Bellevue, Nebraska and charged with: [ol][li]negligent child abuse[/li][li]contributing to the delinquency of a minor[/li][li]flag mutilation and disturbing the peace over an anti-gay protest at the funeral of a soldier last month.[/ol][/li]For those unfamiliar with the Westboro Baptist Church, they are a tiny congregation (mostly the Phelps family) who are vehemently homophobic and blame the US government for being too lenient towards gays. A 1977 Nebraska law prohibits trampling a flag. The adults did not step on the flag, but a 10-year-old child did. The police claim that the adults “knew it was a violation of the law. But they allowed the children to go ahead.” Penalty for conviction: $500 fine, up to 3 months in jail. Shirley Phelps-Roper is asking the Nebraska chapter of the ACLU to represent her. The ACLU has not decided yet. I think the ACLU should represent Sidney Phelps-Roper, and that the Nebraska law is unjust. Furthermore, I don’t see how negligent child abuse can be inferred if the only justification for the accusation is allowing (or encouraging?) the child to step on a US flag. But before stating my opinion on the ACLU list, I would be interested in hearing the opinions of my fellow Dopers. Since I am by far not an expert on constitutional issues, I could be swayed. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/2 "2007-07-06T21:26:07Z")
God I hate to say it, but yes. No human being should ever be forced to bear unwilling allegiance to a frigging rag, no matter what significance someone may attach to it. Yes, I realize it symbolizes this and that and everything holy — but freedom and rights are for people, not for flags. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/3 "2007-07-06T21:28:42Z")
Yes, the ACLU should represent them. The whole case is bullshit. The Nebraska “flag-trampling” law is patently unconstitutional and the child abuse charge is laughable. It’s a transparently political prosecution regardless of how anybody feels about the Phelps clan. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/4 "2007-07-06T21:35:36Z")
Yes, absolutely. Those charges are a joke, and the law against desecrating a flag is an obscenity. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/5 "2007-07-06T21:38:53Z")
Has that law ever been challenged? How long has it been in place? It’s a ridiculous, unjust law and the ACLU should definitely defend her. I have a problem with her coercing a child into demonstration, but that’s another issue. You’d think they’d be smart enough to not play into the Phelps clan’s game. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/6 "2007-07-06T21:41:57Z")
Given that the flag trampling law is probably unconsitutional and certainly stupid and given that the “child abuse” charges are nothing more than a way to pile additional complaints on Phelps’s daughter with no evidence of genuine abuse, (she did not tell the kid to beat a crippled vet with a bat on the grounds that the child’s sentence would be less), then the ACLU should hold its nose and take the case, just as they did for the Nazis in Illinois thirty-odd years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/7 "2007-07-06T21:41:59Z")
The ACLU should defend the son from whatever charges are leveled against him for breaking the flag law. The ACLU can also defend the mother from any flag law / disturbing the peace charges, insofar as they may infringe on her free speech rights. However, I say the ACLU should have no part in defending her against child abuse or delinquency of a minor charges. If you intend to defy the law in protest, it shouldn’t be young children committing the crimes, instead of the adults. Children that age do not exist to be your tools of protest. You should not be encouraging them to commit crimes for you, so that their youthful innocence can shield you from the law, no matter how stupid that law may be. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/8 "2007-07-06T21:44:11Z")
Does the mother need help? Can she afford her own lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/9 "2007-07-06T21:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I think the ACLU should represent Sidney Phelps-Roper, and that the Nebraska law is unjust. Furthermore, I don’t see how negligent child abuse can be inferred if the only justification for the accusation is allowing (or encouraging?) the child to step on a US flag. But before stating my opinion on the ACLU list, I would be interested in hearing the opinions of my fellow Dopers. Since I am by far not an expert on constitutional issues, I could be swayed. [/QUOTE] I agree. Flag desecration, while disgusting, is a constitutionally protected form of free speech. Shirley Phelps-Roper, while disgusting, is as entitled to her constitutional rights as a citizen who doesn’t make people want to puke at the mere mention of her name. The ACLU has defended the rights of people worse than Shirley, and I see no reason why they should refuse her. Slight hijack: Does this strike any other WBC-watcher as unusual? I thought the Phelps gang represented themselves in court. Hell, they’ve unleashed as much vitriol at the ACLU as they have at homosexuals, and now they’re going hat in hand to them? What does that say about the family’s resources? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/10 "2007-07-06T21:47:33Z")
I don’t know if the ACLU always defends people pro bono, but if they do defend Ms. Phelps-Roper I sure hope they only do it under the condition that she pay the legal fees. Kalhoun: the linked article says the Nebraska law against flag trampling dates from 1977. Here’s another article on the case from MSNBC, dated 6 June 2007 [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19080064/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19080064/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/11 "2007-07-06T21:52:04Z")
[From the initial story](http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/06/060607phelps.htm): > [@](#): > > The officer who arrested Phelps-Roper said the group brought their own flags to the protest. > > “The arrestee, Ms. Phelps-Roper, put one around her waist. The second one was given to a 10-year-old, who put it on the ground and started kicking it in the area they were protesting,” Officer Joe Gray said. > > “It appears the adults weren’t stepping on the flag because they knew it was a violation of the law. But they allowed the children to go ahead and do that.” It seems to me that the officer made a (perhaps insupportable) judgment call. Unless someone has evidence or testimony that the Phelps clan kept going out of their way to avoid walking on the flag, as opposed to it being a matter of the kid off to one side doing his own thing, I am not sure that their simple act of not happening to step on the flag indicates a direct and deliberate effort to have the child stomp the flag while they did not. (In addition, while I know the old bromide “ignornce of the law is no excuse,” I am not sure that they would have explicitly known the trampling the flag was a crime. I have no idea whether Ohio or Michigan have laws that prohibit particular actions against the flag (having no interest in doing anything to harm the flag I have no interest in knowing how far I can go.)) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/12 "2007-07-06T21:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Although the U.S. Supreme Court has twice invalidated state flag laws, 47 states still have on the books laws, many modeled after the Uniform Flag Law of 1917, that prohibit the desecration of the flag or its use for advertising and publicity purposes. From [http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:TFdGLz0PqnkJ:www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/flagburning/topic.aspx%3Ftopic%3Dflag\_statelaws+nebraska+flag+law+unconstitutional&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us](http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:TFdGLz0PqnkJ:www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/flagburning/topic.aspx%3Ftopic%3Dflag_statelaws+nebraska+flag+law+unconstitutional&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us). I don’t vouch for the site. Just found it easily. Congratulations to Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Alaska. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/13 "2007-07-06T21:54:20Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I don’t know if the ACLU always defends people pro bono, but if they do defend Ms. Phelps-Roper I sure hope they only do it under the condition that she pay the legal fees. Kalhoun: the linked article says the Nebraska law against flag trampling dates from 1977. Here’s another article on the case from MSNBC, dated 6 June 2007 [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19080064/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19080064/) [/QUOTE] Thanks. I still think it’s unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/14 "2007-07-06T21:54:33Z")
We can ignore my last question. From the latter link by **Arnold Winkelried** : > [@](#): > > Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, acknowledged that she allowed her son Jonah to stand on the flag Tuesday — something she says is protected by the U.S. Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/15 "2007-07-06T21:59:28Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I don’t know if the ACLU always defends people pro bono, but if they do defend Ms. Phelps-Roper I sure hope they only do it under the condition that she pay the legal fees. Kalhoun: the linked article says the Nebraska law against flag trampling dates from 1977. Here’s another article on the case from MSNBC, dated 6 June 2007 [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19080064/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19080064/) [/QUOTE] It certainly sounds like child abuse in that article. She willingly brought her 10 year old son into a situation that could easily escalate to violence. She is also a lawyer (according to the article) and expressed her own opinion that the nebraska law is a joke so let her defend herself. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/16 "2007-07-06T22:02:02Z")
Note that another ACLU affiliate, the ACLU of Eastern Missouri, [has already gone to court behalf of Shirley Phelps-Roper](http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/26265prs20060721.html), in that instance to challenge a restrictive anti-picketing law: > [@](#): > > ST. LOUIS, MO — The American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri filed a lawsuit today [7/21/06] on behalf of Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, a member of a controversial conservative Christian church, over a Missouri law that infringes on her rights to religious liberty and free speech. > > The lawsuit challenges Missouri laws banning protest or picketing “in front of or about” any location in which a funeral is being held or any funeral procession. The law was enacted to prevent members of Phelps-Roper’s church from conducting their protests, which many find to by anti-gay and anti-American. > > “Free speech and the right to protest peacefully extend to all Americans, even if their messages are unpopular and distasteful,” said Brenda Jones, Executive Director of the ACLU of Eastern Missouri. “The government cannot pick and choose whose rights it is going to honor. Laws that restrict First Amendment rights never harm only one group; they pave the way for restrictions on the right to dissent for all groups.” I agree that the ACLU’s principles require them to oppose the Nebraska anti-flag-trampling law. However, it should be recalled that ACLU affiliates usually don’t have the luxury of taking every single case that they’re asked to take, so they have to [set priorities](http://www.aclu.org/about/faqs/21419res20051115.html): > [@](#): > > The ACLU is frequently asked to explain its defense of certain people or groups—particularly controversial and unpopular entities such as the American Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, and the Nation of Islam. We do not defend them because we agree with them; rather, we defend their right to free expression and free assembly. […] > > Since we can’t take on every worthy case, we usually select lawsuits that will have the greatest impact, cases that have the potential for breaking new ground and establishing new precedents that will strengthen American freedoms. IMO, the ACLU has already demonstrated its devotion to principle by siding with Phelps-Roper in the Missouri case. There is no reason that this loathsome cumsack or her disgusting family should automatically expect the ACLU to provide free legal assistance and publicity **every** time they deliberately land themselves in trouble with the law, even if the law in question is repressive and unconstitutional. I would support the Nebraska ACLU affiliate if they chose to represent Phelps-Roper in this case, but I wouldn’t be outraged if they decided it wasn’t the best use of their limited time and resources. > [@Arnold Winkelreid](#): > > I don’t know if the ACLU always defends people pro bono, but if they do defend Ms. Phelps-Roper I sure hope they only do it under the condition that she pay the legal fees. That would be a violation of their policy. The legal work done by the ACLU in civil liberties cases is always supported by the institution’s own funds. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/17 "2007-07-06T22:03:20Z")
[QUOTE=dennis gallagher] It certainly sounds like child abuse in that article. She willingly brought her 10 year old son into a situation that could easily escalate to violence. She is also a lawyer (according to the article) and expressed her own opinion that the nebraska law is a joke so let her defend herself. [/QUOTE] People put their children in “potentially” dangerous situations every minute of every day. This situation is much less likely to put the child in harm’s way than putting him in a car would be. Also, I’d like to see where being a scofflaw prevents the ACLU from defending a person. In fact, I thought it was precisely that kind of behavior that has brought the ACLU to peoples’ aid time and time again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/18 "2007-07-06T22:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=dennis gallagher] It certainly sounds like child abuse in that article. She willingly brought her 10 year old son into a situation that could easily escalate to violence. [/QUOTE] That, however, does not appear to be the action with which she is charged. The child abuse and neglect complaints are tied directly to her declining to prevent, (or, perhaps, encouraging) her child to commit a crime. Since I do not recall any recent incident in which a person suffered an injury during the Phelps’s protests, (the police usually work pretty hard to protet them), the risk to her child does not appear to have been great. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/19 "2007-07-06T22:12:26Z")
[QUOTE=dennis gallagher] She is also a lawyer (according to the article) and expressed her own opinion that the nebraska law is a joke so let her defend herself. [/QUOTE] An interesting point. These guys used to defend themselves in court. In fact, they’ve routinely vilified the ACLU in their fliers. Now Phelps-Roper is actually asking the ACLU to defend her. My hope–and I realize that it’s a long shot–is that we’re finally witnessing the first chinks in the Phelps’ armor. About a year ago in a similar thread, I opined that picketing military funeral’s was a huge mistake for an organization as small as the WBC. As long as they stuck to the funerals of homosexuals and small business owners, they were safe, because these people are more vulnerable to attacks and insults. Less able to fight back or even defend themselves. When they took on the military, they pretty much declared war against America and the mass media. It has been a _very_ hard couple of years for the WBC. If you check out the British documentary **The Most Hated Family in America** , the family members are showing the strain. Even Fred Phelps, never one to shy away from the camera, is hostile and unwilling to talk. Everyone’s defensive. Everyone has that bunker mentality. They wanted attention? Well, they’ve got it, now. I’m hoping that they’ve finally bitten off more than they can chew, and this is a sign of them starting to choke on it. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768/20 "2007-07-06T22:19:24Z")
Hell, the ACLU helped [Rush Limbaugh](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html) two and a half years ago. Why not the Phelps’ cause? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-aclu-defend-phelps-daughter-child-abuse-flag-mutilation-at-military-funeral/410768.md?page=2)