# Should affirmative action students get bonus points in their classes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507 "2003-02-07T17:41:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/21 "2003-02-07T22:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by avery \* > \*\*december, > are you asking me to provide evidence that racism exists? Because that was the “fact” if you will reread the sentence. \*\* ISTM that your statement implied not just racism in general, but that there was anti-black racism on college admissions boards. That’s the “fact” I was asking you to support (if that’s what you meant.) If that’s true, then it’s important to give extra points; otherwise equally qualified blacks will be excluded. OTOH if there’s no anti-black racism on college admissions boards (or if, as I believe, there’s pro-black leaning), then an argument for giving extra points is taken away. **MSU** , I don’t know what the specific situation is at your eponymous school. I do know that some other colleges do offer remedial courses, and I also know that a large percentage of black college students do not graduate. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/22 "2003-02-07T23:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > **MSU** I also know that a large percentage of black college students do not graduate. \*\* Well, I don’t know how large is large to you, but the five-year graduation rate for white students isn’t exactly great. Of course, over time some of the race gap is closed, as it takes some ethnic groups longer due to stopping out. At any rate, the different attrition rates among races is generally not attributed to lack of ability. That is, black kids aren’t failing out or leaving because they weren’t capable or are in over their heads due to Affirmative Action policies. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/23 "2003-02-08T00:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > it takes some ethnic groups longer due to stopping out. What’s stopping out? ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/24 "2003-02-08T00:43:57Z")
December, I wasn’t arguing that remedial courses are not offered. I merely point out that those minorities that get into the U-M law school because of the point bonus do not necessarily require remedial coursework. I suspect you are correct in that the attrition rate is higher among black students- but the connection between that and a preference formula to get into a fiercely competetive program has not been shown. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/25 "2003-02-08T01:56:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*At any rate, the different attrition rates among races is generally not attributed to lack of ability. That is, black kids aren’t failing out or leaving because they weren’t capable or are in over their heads due to Affirmative Action policies. \*\* Here’s a [cite on the statistics](http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/993/sowell2.html). > [@](#): > > …black graduation rates are less than 50 percent. Indeed, black students’ graduation rates are only about half of the graduation rates of white students, many of whom also drop out. This is a huge difference. The obvious theory for the cause would seem to be that so many black kids were over their heads due to affirmative action. Why do you believe that’s not the case, **Cranky**? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/26 "2003-02-08T02:06:44Z")
Stopping out is leaving college for a time, but with the intention of returning. I guess the term got popular in the higher ed literature because it rhymes so catchily with “dropping out” but means something different. Anyway, some kinds of students tend to stop out, while others are more likely to just push through and finish in the typical 4-5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/27 "2003-02-08T03:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Here’s a [cite on the statistics](http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/993/sowell2.html).** But not much of one. More of a brief review with little or no attribution as to source, and no primary data (but an obvious personal ax to grind with the authors of the study that runs contrary to _your_ assertion, Bowen and Bok. As I am honestly curious about the matter, do you have any real cites? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/28 "2003-02-08T03:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tjblack \* > But if that institution racism is in the past, why should certain minorities receive a benefit in the present? > > There are two possible cases: To paraphrase Shakespeare, there is much more on heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophies. Note that noone is changing students scores in the sense of adding points to their SATs or otherwise making it appear that they did better than they did (which adding points to their grades in class would do). The point-system is simply used **internally** for admissions purposes and its use by U of M recognizes several facts, among them that: (1) A diverse student body can be a beneficial experience for all students. (2) The quantitative measures of achievement such as SAT scores are imperfect indicators of success in college at best. SAT scores reflect test-taking skills, the quality of the educational institutions you attended up until then, etc., etc. As [this](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030210&s=guinier) editorial by Lani Guinier points out, SAT scores correlate more strongly to your grandparents’ class status than to your first year college grades. (3) Studies in many different areas continue to show that subtle (and less often, not so subtle) racism persists in a wide variety of venues, e.g., recent studies of call-back rates for resumes based on whether the job applicant has a “black-sounding” name of a “white-sounding” name. So, there are many components to the racial disadvantage…some of which are due to past injustices that persist over many generations and some which still occur today. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/29 "2003-02-08T03:48:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian \* > \*\*But not much of one. More of a brief review with little or no attribution as to source, and no primary data (but an obvious personal ax to grind with the authors of the study that runs contrary to _your_ assertion, Bowen and Bok. As I am honestly curious about the matter, do you have any real cites? \*\* **Hentor** , that is a real cite. The Hoover Institution is a highly reputable organization. Thomas Sowell is a famous ecomonist and pundit. I trust them. Furthermore there is no _personal_ ax to grind. There is an ideological ax to grind. No doubt Sowell believes that Bowen and Bok’s slanted book is bad for African-Americans. But, it’s not personal AFAIK. When I looked through google, I saw graduation rates by race, institution by institution. I didn’t find overall totals, although these must be available. At least, one could compile totals by adding up the individual institutions. (I wonder whether the totals are intentionally NOT publicized, so as to avoid facing the disparity.) Anyhow, here are some comments that tend to support my original cite. Here’s a comment by [Walter Williams](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams122999.asp) > [@](#): > > By any measure of academic achievement – whether it’s performance on tests to get into college, grade point average while in college, graduation rate or performance on tests after college for admission to law or medical schools – blacks lag far behind the general population. Here’s a comment about Michigan by [Larry Elder](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder112601.asp). > [@](#): > > A study of seven Michigan colleges by the Detroit News reveals that "among black students who were freshmen in 1994, just 40 percent got their diplomas after six years, compared to 61 percent of white students and 74 percent of Asians … Note that all three sources generally agree. Furthermore I have seen no sources that disagree. BTW the disparity may be even greater than the graduation rates would indicate. I suspect that even those black students who graduate are disproportionately under-represented in the science, mathematics, engineering areas. ISTM that affirmative action does harm to an enormous number of minority students. The right solution, of course, is to improve ElHi education, rather than “give” extra points for college admission. It’s not much of a gift. The institution formally gives the points, but not the education that they ought to represent. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/30 "2003-02-08T04:03:39Z")
Without affirmative action, how will males and whites manage to keep up? The dominance of women in applications and qualifications is well known (in some schools, to the point where women are suing because they were denied admission in favor of inferior male applicants) But apparently, without affirmative action, even whites seem to suffer, in favor of Asians. > **[The Nation; The New Calculus Of Diversity on Campus (Published 2003)](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/weekinreview/the-nation-the-new-calculus-of-diversity-on-campus.html)** > > Number of Asian-American students accepted at colleges can be expected to soar, at expense of other groups, even whites, if Supreme Court phases out race-conscious admissions; that is what happened at public universities in Calif and Texas when they... What a wcky world. —The right solution, of course, is to improve ElHi education, rather than “give” extra points for college admission.— I completely concurr. However, doing so is way trickier than it seems. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/31 "2003-02-08T15:12:41Z")
december, the NCAA graduation rates (which most colleges use as a consistent, annually-collected source) show that black graduation rates lag by about 20 points. Not “half” that of whites. So it’s like a 60%-40% split at Division I institutions. Sure it’s an obvious “theory” that black drop out because they’re not smart enough to hack it at the institutions they were given a hand up into. But I don’t go by obvious theories, I go by research. Alexander Astin is one of the esteemed higher ed researchers who discovered that it isn’t academic factors that seem to contribute to attrition. As I understand it, black graduation rates are lower regardless of whether the students were admitted by benefit of extra points or not. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/32 "2003-02-08T15:16:40Z")
December said "(I wonder whether the totals are intentionally NOT publicized, so as to avoid facing the disparity.) " Uh, no. Sorry I didn’t see this before. NCAA is just one of the places that institutions report graduation rates to. There is no elaborate hiding scheme on our part, so let me put that fear to rest. I’m not the person in our office who dies that reporting, so I don’t know if the Common Data Set and the NCES and others ask for them too. But if they did, we’d produce them, just as other colleges would. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/33 "2003-02-08T16:31:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > december, the NCAA graduation rates (which most colleges use as a consistent, annually-collected source) show that black graduation rates lag by about 20 points. Not “half” that of whites. So it’s like a 60%-40% split at Division I institutions. I found a [cite](http://www.ibiblio.org/prism/sep97/differences.html). > [@](#): > > Only 37% of all Black students who enrolled as first-year students in the years 1986 to 1989 graduated within six years as compared to 59% of Whites. 37%/59% = .62. Calling 0.62 “about half” is an exaggeration, but not totally wrong. There is a dramatic difference in graduation rates by race. IMHO the absolute graduation rate is more important than the difference by race. The fact that 63% of black college students fail to graduate tells us that something is tragically amiss. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/34 "2003-02-08T18:03:19Z")
Here’s a quote from Kurt Vonnegut that reminded me of this issue - “The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren’t only equal before God and the law. They were equal in every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of the agents of the United States Handicapper General.” -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- “Harrison Bergeron” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/35 "2003-02-08T18:04:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\ ***Hentor** , that is a real cite. The Hoover Institution is a highly reputable organization. Thomas Sowell is a famous ecomonist and pundit. I trust them. > > Furthermore there is no _personal_ ax to grind. There is an ideological ax to grind. No doubt Sowell believes that Bowen and Bok’s slanted book is bad for African-Americans. But, it’s not personal AFAIK. Well, **december** , we disagree on this as well. When someone says, in the context of an academic discussion: > [@](#): > > As one of those critics, I have long said that, if you are going to be mismatched, you are better off on a small campus, where you have a chance of getting special help from your professors, rather than at a huge research university where most professors give little attention to undergraduates of any race. Somehow, I don’t feel refuted. it sounds like a personal ax to grind to me. Your solution (as vague and ineffectual as it is), to improve early and high school education, is super, but fails to fully address the vicious cycle of racism, denial to admission for higher education, lowered achievement and income, lower academic achievement for progeny, and so forth. However, it is very kind of you to be so concerned for the psychological and emotional well-being of the misfortunate drop-outs. What happens to a dream deferred? Do you substitute athletics and musical preparation (and burger flipping) instead? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/36 "2003-02-08T18:12:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*No. > > The admission points are (supposedly) given to even the playing field to those who are considered at a disadvantaged in _getting into_ college because of past instutionalized racism. > > Why would or should this go beyond admissions? \*\* But it still wouldn’t be even! After all, do not those poor student/victims still bear the burden of the oppression they suffered? Merely admitting them to the school doesn’t eliminate the burden theys till bear. It doesn’t even the playing field. Indeed, they should be entitled to a 13% bonus on all pay received after they get their degrees! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/37 "2003-02-08T18:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian \* > \*\*What happens to a dream deferred? Do you substitute athletics and musical preparation (and burger flipping) instead? \*\* I bellieve you are a racially enlightened individual. The difference between you and me is that I want to bring problems out in the open so we can face them. What do you think the 63% of black college dropouts are doing for their careers? Not to mention those who don’t attend college. Do we serve minorities by ignoring weaknesses in programs, just because they’re well-intentioned? There’s been an enormous effort in this country to have adequate education for minorites. The effort has done a considerable amount of good, but IMHO less than it ought to have done. I think the effort is hampered by entrenched sacred cows, like affirmative action, School Lunch and Head Start. Checking to see how well these programs actually work invites an accusation of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/38 "2003-02-08T18:32:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > I bellieve you are a racially enlightened individual. The difference between you and me is that I want to bring problems out in the open so we can face them. What do you think the 63% of black college dropouts are doing for their careers? Not to mention those who don’t attend college. Do we serve minorities by ignoring weaknesses in programs, just because they’re well-intentioned? No, **december** , your statement above illustrates that the difference between you and me is that you say things with absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Show me some data, rather than references to people referring to references to data, and we can talk about things being in the light. Show me data that says that the dropout rate of African Americans in the US worsens when race is included as a factor in determining admission to college, and improves when it is not, and we can talk about the light. If anything, I would say I am an empiricist. Which requires light. > [@](#): > > There’s been an enormous effort in this country to have adequate education for minorites. The effort has done a considerable amount of good, but IMHO less than it ought to have done. I think the effort is hampered by entrenched sacred cows, like affirmative action, School Lunch and Head Start. Checking to see how well these programs actually work invites an accusation of racism. Okay, so what is the failing? Let’s bring the underpinnings of your beliefs here into the light. Ignoring your lack of data for the assertions in your statement above (i.e. that these programs have not worked), tell me why it hasn’t worked, and what your solution would be. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507/39 "2003-02-08T19:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > IMHO the absolute graduation rate is more important than the difference by race. The fact that 63% of black college students fail to graduate tells us that something is tragically amiss. \*\* And there is something amiss that 40% of all white students don’t get a degree in six years, too. First of all, I think we have to recognize that degree attainment is not the end game for all students–and all colleges. I wish it were, but when as a nation we have that high of a college dropout rate, clearly something else is going on. At top-tier schools, nearly everyone graduates (OR transfers to another school to do so–keep in mind that institutional graduation rates do not and cannot take into account successful transfers out). At other types of schools, particularly many public colleges, a substantial number of students leave without the degree. Presumably they get something for their time or more people would find this a national outrage. Some college is better than no college. If that’s not true, then let’s get outraged about EVERY dropout and not just focus on the ones with darker skin. Second of all, and this is much more important, I have yet to be shown that affirmative action has much to do with those dropout rates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-affirmative-action-students-get-bonus-points-in-their-classes/153507.md?page=1)