Actually, grienspace, I would be in the Banning category, not Selective Euthanasia.
I do not support the practice of euthanizing dogs after they have attacked or killed humans, unless they have rabies or distemper.
I would support the practice of spaying/neutering all Pit Bulls until the breed disappears, and making ownership of unsterilized (or cloned) Pit Bull dogs a criminal offense.
Nice summary, though.
-fh
This thread popped up this evening in MPSIMS. Scared the shit of of this doper.
Here’s another thread.
Only just seen this thread and am surprised that the only post I can find about other countries experiences (by Curious George) has not resulted in more responses.
Britain (in a normal spate of illiberal populist knee-jerk legislation) criminalized particular breeds of dog. Unfortunately, breeds of dogs do not exist as a scientific entity, only as a matter of artificial definition. The law led to so much confusion that it is now virtually unenforcable- it a several years of use, and managed to cause the destruction of several ‘really dangerous’ dogs and several ‘safe dogs’ which happened to be demonized as a non-existent breed. I can’t remember hearing of a use of the Act in the last two years and we are bak to common law derived offenses of failing to control a domestic animal i order to control potentially or actually dangerous dogs.
In summary, draconian legislation on this matter has had no effect other than to satisfy press driven public demand for impossible solutions to difficult problems.
And BTW I’m no softy about dangerous dogs- I believe that if they are uncontrollable because of socialization or genetic disposition (who knows?) they should be destroyed- no question. I just don’t believe that it is possible to legislate effectively by breed, only be behaviour.
Ok, you have all made some good points. My Dad bred sled dogs, so I have some knowledge. First- no breed is instincively vicious. All CAN be trained to be vicious. It is much easier with some breeds than others, tho. Pit Bulls have such a bad rep- as they are FAR too often bought & trained to be vicious- and, of course, they are one of the easier breeds to make that way (altho many of the small breeds are actually nastier, no-one really gets very “mauled” by a chihuahua). Also note, all dogs have some odd things which “set them off”, which are unpredictable. I had a Shetland Sheepdog- fine, UNLESS you made a grab for “HER bone”- when she was under the kitchen table. Just bones, just the table.
However, Pit Bulls do deliver a VERY nasty bite. AND, when that “odd thing that sets them off” does happen- they just attack- not like my Sheep Dog who would snarl & snap, first. Ie, you might not know that picking up a bone under the table would cause her to 'go off on you"- but when she did 'go off"- she would warn you 1st. It would take a REAL idiot to keep trying to take that bone after a dog “snarls & snaps”. But Pit bulls don’t do that- they just attack.
So- clearly there is something “wrong” with Pit Bulls. However, they can also be very sweet, loving animals. But does that mean that breed should be banned? No- that means we need to put them ONLY in the hands of responsible owners, and make sure folks can buy them (actually the AKC version, which is not quite the same thing) ONLY from reputable breeders. I hope that reputable AKC dog breeders will not sell their puppies who want “killer dogs”- and in any case, they would be expensive.
Thus, I am in favor of licensing dog breeders, with particular care taken to those who breed pit bulls, rottwielers, wolf-crosses, etc.* It would be illegal to sell, or offer to sell a dog without being licensed. After a while, you would have to show that your dog, especially from a “potentially dangerous breed” came from a licensed breeder. (Say, 5 years after, any dogs a year old or younger, etc). Next, no person could own more than 1 dog that was not neutered unless he had a license.
DITWD, since most dogs that are known as ‘pit bulls’ are not AKC registered, how would you enforce breeding restrictions? One might need a license to sell purebred pit bulls that were AKC registered, but what about somebody who has no papers for their breeding dogs and insists that they are mongrels? As mentioned before, there are some other breeds that resemble pit bulls, and a lot of dogs that people are assuming pit bulls aren’t.
Badtz: simple- EVERYONE needs a dog breeding lic. And, you have to describe the dog. If it is a cross, you should be able to describe the antecedants. If you refuse, no license. If you claim “general mutt” a description is needed, including size, fur length, snout shape, etc. If you lie- you not only lose the license, you can be fined. And, some neighbor will very likely “drop a dime” on someone breeding “Pit Bulls”, and since they will NOT be "long haired, 20-30 lbs, small, pointed snout’ or whatever- you lose. Anything that resembles a Pit Bull would be an automatic “NO”- they would have to be purebred AKC or nothing like a pit bull or rottie, etc.
Thus- purebred Pit Bull lovers can still have their dogs. The “mutts” are “grandfathered in”- but no more can be bred.
{gets to work breeding a long-haired pit bull, hoping to make millions}
Seriously, you are talking about a massive amount of new legislation - there are millions of dogs in this country, a lot of people let their dogs breed. I don’t think you could ever get legislation passed that would prevent anyone from allowing their dogs to breed, which is what you would need. Preventing people from breeding mongrels of unknown heritage would be extremely difficult. Give a description of a ‘pit bull’ that wouldn’t apply to a dozen other breeds of dogs. You would get people breeding pit bulls but claiming in the paperwork that the parents were a boxer and some unknown mutt, then ‘giving’ the pups away to their ‘friends’.
There is a huge non-registered dog breeding and selling economy in USA. I personally knew several people in the smallish (25,000 people) town I used to live in who bred and raised pit bulls and other breeds in their backyards, who sold pups to supplement their income, and I wasn’t even into that scene, I just knew a lot of people on the bad side of town.
I think we have fairly effective legislation now, the reason we don’t have more is it would be practically impossible to enforce.
Just a note that American Pit Bull Terriers are not registered by the AKC. Please don’t attach any significance to this - a lot of dog breeds are not registered by the AKC. American Staffordshire Terriers and several other bully breeds are, but not APBTs. APBTs are registered by ADBA. Here’s a link. http://members.aol.com/bstofshw/
Yep, that’s the problem I see with the solution I offered.
On the other hand if every dog was required to be altered unless owned by a registered/licensed breeder, it would be a stedily easier proposition as time went on.
Heck, give the AKC and other breed registries some incentive to help the process, and you’ve got a tremendous amount of resources behind you.
And please note, this is not in any way recommending that the “state” be in charge of defining breeds or breeding practices. That’s what the AKC, and other breed registries do very well. No sense in having the state get in there and mess things up.
-Doug
I intentionally bought an American Pit Bull Terrier puppy. I went to ADBA shows to find a prospective breed bitch and breeder. Maybe part of the reason why I chose his breed is their tough image; however I had known several pit bulls & thoroughly loved them. I wanted a dog that would be very loyal & loving. I know, lots of you are thinking “every dog is innately loving & will be loyal if treated kindly”. True, but not like a pit bull.
IMHO, pit bulls are superior dogs. They are definitely physically superior, with the possible exception of border collies. I don’t know much about the sled dog breeds so I grant them a possible exception, too. They are more intelligent than the average dog. I have found Rottweillers & border collies to be even more intelligent than pit bulls, though pits are more easily trained than Rotties.
My wife and I are childless, so we spoil our dogs and consider them our kids. We bought a house with a 6-foot chain link fence around the back yard so our kids would have a nice, safe place to play. We don’t let them roam the streets, although everyone did where I grew up. Now I think that kind of behavoir is criminal, both for endangering small children who could be knocked down by one of our dogs & for endangering the dogs themselves. I spend several hours most of my days off training our dogs & playing with them. I walk both our dogs on leash around the neighborhood & have found a wooded place where I can take them to run off leash in the winter, as there are no other people there.
I had a hard time finding a mother for my dog. I put very high standards on the bitch herself and even higher standards on the breeder. Most of the pit bull owners I met were young men who fit in the ‘redneck’ or other ethnic/working class stereotype. I was fortunate enough to meet a nice young woman with a master’s degree and her dog at a show. They participate in schutzhund, a dog sport developed for the GSD consisting of obedience, tracking & protection. She has also earned a Canine Good Citizen certificate as well as being a skilled retreiver. Yes, a pure-bred American Pit Bull Terrier.
My boy doesn’t have the same level of skills or education as his illustrious mother, and I would not leave him unattended (or unleashed, for that matter) with a small child. There’s nobody I would rather take backpacking though.
I was bitten in the face by a dog at the age of 8. It was my best friend’s siberian husky. Two seperate occasions.
I agree people should take more responsibility for their animals, especially breeding. I haven’t bred my dog yet because pit bull owners do tend to be trailer folk.
I encourage anyone interested in it to look into breeding regulations in Germany.
DITWD
What you are proposing was brought up in another discussion several months ago. I think the consensus then was it is not fair to the poorer kids that can’t afford a pricy dog. Heck some of them are lucky that their parent(s) let them have one at all.
Dogs are a definite joy to own especially for a kid. We have two of each. They are supposed to be outside dogs but several nights this winter I have had to get up and let one or both of them out because the kids would sneak them up to their rooms.
BTW they are both pound puppies.
Whats wrong with
rednecks
ethnics
young men
working class people
trailor folk
I feel insulted as I’ve been in four of five categories during my life time.
Feel insulted if you want, I’ve been in all 5. In fact, 1/2 the population are male & if they live long enough, will be young men. All of us come from one or more ethnic
group. With the exception of those who are proud to be called rednecks, I think I’ve insulted over 6 billion people.
Where I live, mobile homes tend to be situated in “trailer parks”, close enough to one another that you can pass condiments to your next-door neighbor without lifting a cheek off the seat. This is not a suitable living situation for a 60-pound highly active carnivore. Yet, people try to combine the two.
The OP proposed we mandate sterilization of “pit bulls”, allowing the entire breed to become extinct. Most communities already have leash laws, and when obeyed will prevent maulings, etc.
I am advocating personal responsibility. My wife & I are childless because we are unwilling to assume the tremendous responsibility that parenting demands. I know for a fact that adopting an American Pit Bull Terrier requires more responsibility than adopting most other breeds of dog. That much responsibility I am willing to assume. I believe, due to personal observation, that I excersise more responsibility in raising my dogs than a lot of people who live in a near-by trailer park do with raising their children. Both my dog and their children are POTENTIALLY dangerous. Should we mandate sterilization of “trailer trash”? “At-risk” children? O.K., these are only potentially dangerous, they will probably grow up to be decent taxpayers. How about multiple felons? These folks have proven themselves to be a danger to society. I’m not trying to hijack this post, I just want to put things in perspective here. Someone earlier cited a 1-in-16 statistic for maulings, I wonder who went out & counted ALL the “pit bulls” in existence, their criteria for defining “pit bull”, etc.
I would agree with legislation that put more restrictions on dog ownership, if it was applied fairly and enforced rigidly, something akin to laws regarding motor vehicle ownership. Most of the time when someone is attacked by a dog, it could have been avoided had the animal been raised correctly. Imagine how much more dangerous the streets would be if drivers licenses and auto insurance were not required! The problem with this proposal is that dogs are such an important part of our culture, and there are so many of them - after the law was passed and people were given time to take the tests, buy insurance, etc., police would have to start checking the licenses of people who owned dogs. You would have millions more strays on the streets, as people who could not or would not take the test turned their pets loose to avoid prosecution. And just because someone has proven they know how a dog should be raised is no guarantee they would do so. It would be hard to get such laws in place, but I personally think they would be worth it - I just don’t think it’s likely to happen.
Don’t own a dog, don’t know much about them. (Forgive me for not checking back on this thread.)
There was an article in Tuesday’s 2/6/01 New York Times, Science Section entitled, “It Takes Training and Genes to Make a Mean Dog Mean”. It made a number of interesting points, of which I’ll list just 2:
There will always be the expensive dogs that somebody decided they did not want- and abandoned. Or runaways that were not claimed. The mutts that breed, by “accident”- and the pups are just “free to good home”, would be OK. And in any case- the fee is small ($50yr?) and could be gotten by someone who wanted to breed mutts (we bred “cock-a-poos” twice)- but it would be refused if they were anything like Pit Bulls. Most good reputable breeders will sell “pet quality” purebred dogs for way less, also. (My Rajah- Bengal cat was $300 <he had some "show faults>-his sister was $1500).
If, overall- that means there are a few less dogs- that means less dogs that have to be killed at the pound. I assume you agree this is a GOOD thing.
Daniel
There is still a need for farm dogs.
I’ve never seen any purebread that makes a good one. Wow what have I said. I can just hear the computer keys clacking.
The purebred ones I have contact with all seem to have a personality problem that does not allow them the laid back attitude that I attribute to a good all around dog.And anyway why should the poor have to put up with dogs that aren’t healthy,muscled right etc.
I do agree that no one wants to see overpopulation or dogs being put to sleep.
I don’t have answers and I don’t like the breed control standards mentioned. Apparently the breed is popular or we wouldn’t have theproblem. Education of the public and most of all dog owners seems to me a better idea.
I’m assuming that the poor cannot afford purebred dogs.In my experience, it has bee the purebred dogs who have the majority of health problems. And most purebred dogs were bred to fill a specific function, which means they have a tendency towards a certain set of personality traits. Border collies just can’t sit still, ditto lots of terrier breeds. Pit Bull Terriers were bred for bloodsport for centuries. A large minority of them are “game” i.e. bite hard & don’t let go, play rough & generally HAVE to win and should not be bred. All dogs, regardless of breed, that bite a lot should not be bred. IMHO, most dogs & all but a few cats should be sterilized as it is the only effective way to prevent breeding.
I wouldn’t mind seeing the type of legislation we’ve been talking about in this last page, mandatory sterilization except for people who are willing to register as breeders, pay a stiff fee, etc. Realistically, I don’t expect it to work. Look at the war on drugs. Education hasn’t stopped people from breeding themselves irresponsibly (finish highschool, get a job, stay sober, pay attention to the kids). So we’ve designed a benign police state, it just ain’t gonna work.