# Should Alan Grayson apologize for his "die quickly" remarks?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 1, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211 "2009-10-01T05:11:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/181 "2009-10-05T13:15:42Z")
If the point is to inflame people a la Rush and Hannity, then let’s have someone other than our elected national leaders do it. I’m sure there’s plenty of those “put your anti-cooty shields up” websites out there to do the job. But let’s get real: all these right wing pundits only have two things on their agenda: get higher ratings and bigger paychecks; and blame everything on Democrats. Rush has no health care plan, he has no vote in Congress.
For as much as folks refuse to cry crocodile tears for insulting Republicans, I’m starting to think that Rush, Beck, and Hannity are hurting your “widdle feewlings” and you want someone to fight back against these big, mean men who are marginalized except for the coverage of teabaggers and the stupid things they say. Let’s be clear, their agenda is losing. They opposed stimulating the economy and getting things rolling again. They wanted presidents who were more right wing than Bush or McCain could ever be. They wanted us to stay in Iraq for a jillion years. Whatever agenda they have, they are losing, and yet they say nasty things so you want someone to say mean things about them. It is a childish debate.
And I know that supporters of Grayson’s comments will make any absurd claim to defend a speech that makes them feeeeeel so very good, but the oft-repeated claim here that Democrats need some spine and passion to get reform done does not mean that this is the way to do it. Our choice is not between Glenn Beck and Adlai Stevenson: insane rantings vs. boring eggheads. Ted Kennedy, for example, was without a doubt one of the most passionate, and most effective, political leaders of the 20th century.
Kennedy’s speeches had more passion than anything Rush has ever said, and they also had more content. He also didn’t rest his passion on lies and insults.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/182 "2009-10-05T13:56:42Z")
From this week’s Democratic Underground [“Top 10 Conservative Idiots:”](http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/374)
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*6. House Republicans \*\*
>
> Keep Michelle Bachmann’s words in mind as you contemplate this mind-bending chunk of chutzpa: last week House Republicans demanded a formal apology from Rep. Alan Grayson (D-FL) because during a speech on the House floor Grayson noted that 45,000 Americans die each year from lack of health insurance and said that the Republican health care plan is “Don’t get sick,” and failing that, “Die quickly.”
>
> The horror! This of course follows a summer during which, according to Think Progress:
>
> Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite (R-FL) said on the House floor: “Last week Democrats released a health care bill which essentially said to America’s seniors: Drop dead.”
>
> Rep. Steve King (R-IA) said on the House floor: “They’re going to save money by rationing care, getting you in a long line. Places like Canada, United Kingdom, and Europe. People die when they’re in line.”
>
> Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC) said on the House floor: “(The Republican plan will) make sure we bring down the cost of health care for all Americans and that ensures affordable access for all Americans and is pro-life because it will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government.”
>
> Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA) said on the House floor: “That’s exactly what’s going on in Canada and Great Britain today … and a lot of people are going to die.”
>
> Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) said on the House floor: “One in five people have to die because they went to socialized medicine! … I would hate to think that among five women, one of 'em is gonna die because we go to socialized care.”
>
> And of course let’s not forget bug-eyed Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) who screamed “YOU LIE!” at the President during a joint session of Congress and then refused to apologize for violating House rules.
>
> Yes, despite all that, Alan Grayson’s remarks were suddenly the hot news story of the day (thanks, liberal media!) and Republicans quickly piled aboard the demandwagon. “We want an apology!” they shrieked, apparently completely blind to the irony of such a request. As Nancy Pelosi said later, “If anybody’s going to apologize everybody should apologize.”
>
> But of course that wasn’t good enough for the GOP. Up stepped Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) with a laughable resolution of disapproval calling Grayson’s remarks “a breach of decorum and degraded the integrity and proceedings of the House.”
>
> So Grayson did the only thing he could do. He took to the House floor and apologized:
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > REP. GRAYSON: Last night, I gave a speech and I’m not going to recount everything I said but after that speech, several republicans asked me to apologize. I would like to apologize.
> >
> > I would like to apologize and here’s why. According to this study, health insurance and mortality in adults which was published two weeks, 44,000 Americans die every year because they have no health insurance. 44,789 Americans die every year according to the Harvard study. And you can see it by going to our website at [grayson.house.gov](http://grayson.house.gov). That is 10 times more than the number of Americans who have died in Iraq and who died in 9/11. But that was just once. This is every single year. That’s right. Every single year.
> >
> > Take a look at this. Read it and weep. And I mean that, read it and weep, because of all these Americans who are dying because they don’t have health insurance. Now, I think we should do something about that and the Democratic health care plan does do something about that. It makes health care affordable for those who can’t afford insurance and it safes these peoples’ lives.
> >
> > Let’s remember we should care about people even after they’re born. I call upon the Democratic members of the House, I call upon the republican members of the house, I call upon all of us to do our jobs for the sake of America, for the sake of those dying people and their families. I apologize to the dead and their families that we haven’t voted sooner to end this holocaust in America. I yield the rest of my time.
>
> Grayson later went on TV to call the Republican party a “lie factory” and “knuckle-dragging neanderthals,” and like most bullies who suddenly get punched in the face, the GOP folded like a handkerchief. “House Republicans will not offer a resolution Thursday asking that Rep. Alan Grayson be condemned for charging that the GOP health care plan calls for those who get sick to die quickly,” reported CNN last week.
>
> Oh, but look out! They “did not rule out taking future action against the controversial Florida Democrat.”
>
> I expect Rep. Grayson is quivering in his shoes.
---
### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/183 "2009-10-05T14:23:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Let’s be clear, their agenda is losing.
I agree, which is why I’ve switched sides in this particular debate.
It is nice and freeing when someone says what I’m thinking, but that doesn’t make it good politics.
---
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/184 "2009-10-05T14:32:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> I agree, which is why I’ve switched sides in this particular debate.
I have to say, when you said you changed your mind, I thought: “What?!? Someone on the SDMB changing their mind? My irony meter isn’t going off… could this be genuine? It’s just so… weird.” 🙂
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### Author:  [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/185 "2009-10-05T15:04:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Because some people will undoubtedly take it the wrong way (or have already), even though he’s Jewish. Just the “I apologise for any misunderstandings over my choice of words” non-apology the Republicans have been trotting out a lot lately.
He shouldn’t apologize for people’s poor comprehension. A conservative friend of mine already made a “The Holocaust” reference about Grayson. I simply told him he was wrong. he used a legitimate small h holocaust.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/186 "2009-10-05T15:12:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> If the point is to inflame people a la Rush and Hannity, then let’s have someone other than our elected national leaders do it.
Exactly. This comparison to Rush and Beck is just silly-- those guys make money out of being jerks. I want better from our elected officals. There are plenty of ways to criticize the Pubbies strongly without saying their plan is for people to die. For some, that might speak truth to power, but as someone who is not aligned to either party, I can tell it does not speak any truth to me.
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### Author:  [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/187 "2009-10-05T15:28:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Now you’re acknowledging that the GOP has ideas for reform and cost-reduction, but you think those ideas will fail to make things better. That’s a fine and reasonable position. But it just isn’t the same as saying that the GOP wants to do nothing about health care.
>
> In other words, if all Grayson was saying was that the GOP wants people to die quickly because all of the GOP ideas to avoid that result are not going to work, that’s one thing. If Grayson was saying the GOP wants people to die quickly because that’s what the GOP prefers, that’s quite another thing entirely. The argument for his apology is that he was saying the latter.
Grayson is also talking about the _current_ debate on health care reform rather than any efforts they made in the past. IMHO the problem is that although many Pubbies may recognize the urgent need for reform for political reasons they think it’s more important to derail Obama’s agenda than to compromise and bring about reform.
The Pubbie with Grayson on CNN listed several things claiming that if Obama would include those {some?, all?} the GOP would line up to support reform. I call BS on that. Some might but when we see GOP officials repeating lies rather than offering commitments to serious suggestions I see the evidence that their real priority is to defeat Obama politically rather than address a very serious issue.
If that’s the case, and considering the realities of the health care issue, then Grayson’s caricature of their policy isn’t all that inaccurate.
That said, I think he could have been just as forceful and condemning by listing the lies repeated by members of the GOP {the list in this thread} and insisting that they offer some commitment to real health care reform specifics or admit to the public that they care more about political victory than they do the citizens who pay their salaries.
The next question is whether something like that would have gotten the media’s attention.
---
### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/188 "2009-10-05T15:35:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Precisely the logic used to justify deceiving people about the Iraq war. If we know our ends are just, then who cares if we lie to people to get there? It’s a noble lie, right? The arrogance in that logic is easy to identify when you’re in the opposition. No one _knows_ what policy will have what results.
I know that war is guaranteed to kill people, and health care is guaranteed to save people. I don’t see any moral ambiguity here.
Let’s not forget that Alan Grayson didn’t introduce lies to this debate. He made them in a context where many, many, many bad things had already been said about the Democratic health care plan. Appeals to emotion can much more effective than appeals to fact.
In an ideal world, nobody would make comments like this. But we don’t live in that world.
---
### Author:  [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/189 "2009-10-05T16:25:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Precisely the logic used to justify deceiving people about the Iraq war. If we know our ends are just, then who cares if we lie to people to get there? It’s a noble lie, right? The arrogance in that logic is easy to identify when you’re in the opposition. No one _knows_ what policy will have what results. All we have is a bunch of more or less educated guesses, fractured and incomplete knowledge at best. The whole point of widely representative, deliberative government is to aggregate that knowledge and wisdom to reach the ideal result knowing how fallible people are. And more importanty, to ensure that when we make the wrong decisions, we’re making them on behalf of everyone. You ruin that when you govern by deception.
But it wasn’t about intentional deception for Grayson. He wasn’t trying to fool anyone . He was using hyperbole to make a point. Do we see any evidence that republicans will actually support specific measures? Are they willing to compromise? On what specifically? These are the details that determine whether their actions are completely obstructionist or in any way a sincere attempt to solve a serious problem.
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### Author:  [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/190 "2009-10-05T16:34:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Exactly. This comparison to Rush and Beck is just silly-- those guys make money out of being jerks. I want better from our elected officals. There are plenty of ways to criticize the Pubbies strongly without saying their plan is for people to die. For some, that might speak truth to power, but as someone who is not aligned to either party, I can tell it does not speak any truth to me.
An idealistic and somewhat unrealistic principle. I tend to agree in that I prefer strong and accurate language over hyperbole. Still, I forgive Grayson for hitting back at the lies consistently perpetrated by the GOP in those very chambers. The over the top language is a way of getting people to make the “put up or shut up” demand on the GOP. Do they want to whine and bitch after everything you’ve been saying, or will they actually commit to reforming health care and act accordingly?
The big problem is if their primary goal _is_ to defeat Obama politically on this issue they have to stop reform to keep him from getting the credit. Exposing their obstructionism is the way to go.
---
### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/191 "2009-10-05T16:37:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> If the point is to inflame people a la Rush and Hannity, then let’s have someone other than our elected national leaders do it. I’m sure there’s plenty of those “put your anti-cooty shields up” websites out there to do the job. But let’s get real: all these right wing pundits only have two things on their agenda: get higher ratings and bigger paychecks; and blame everything on Democrats. Rush has no health care plan, he has no vote in Congress.
>
> For as much as folks refuse to cry crocodile tears for insulting Republicans, I’m starting to think that Rush, Beck, and Hannity are hurting your “widdle feewlings” and you want someone to fight back against these big, mean men who are marginalized except for the coverage of teabaggers and the stupid things they say. Let’s be clear, their agenda is losing. They opposed stimulating the economy and getting things rolling again. They wanted presidents who were more right wing than Bush or McCain could ever be. They wanted us to stay in Iraq for a jillion years. Whatever agenda they have, they are losing, and yet they say nasty things so you want someone to say mean things about them. It is a childish debate.
>
> And I know that supporters of Grayson’s comments will make any absurd claim to defend a speech that makes them feeeeeel so very good, but the oft-repeated claim here that Democrats need some spine and passion to get reform done does not mean that this is the way to do it. Our choice is not between Glenn Beck and Adlai Stevenson: insane rantings vs. boring eggheads. Ted Kennedy, for example, was without a doubt one of the most passionate, and most effective, political leaders of the 20th century.
>
> Kennedy’s speeches had more passion than anything Rush has ever said, and they also had more content. **He also didn’t rest his passion on lies and insults**.
Interesting how you end that post, given that you engage in name calling and insults yourself, **Ravenman**.
I won’t say that the overall thrust of your argument is wrong, but ISTM that your own actions and words don’t meet the ideal you profess to be putting out there.
I still feel that Mr. Grayson has nothing to apologize for, even within the context of the points you’ve made. His speech was meant to spur action, and while it’s still too early to tell if it did that, it certainly did shine a light on the do-nothing-have-inertia strategy of the Republicans.
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### Author:  [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/192 "2009-10-05T16:38:54Z")
I’d like to add that I wouldn’t want other Dems to start jumping on the bandwagon and using over the top hyperbole to attack the GOP. Now that Grayson has some press it’s time for other Dems to fight back by clarifying his overall point and inviting the GOP to stop whining and actually participate in solving problems rather than obstructing progress.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/193 "2009-10-05T16:47:36Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#):
>
> I’d like to add that I wouldn’t want other Dems to start jumping on the bandwagon and using over the top hyperbole to attack the GOP. Now that Grayson has some press it’s time for other Dems to fight back by clarifying his overall point and inviting the GOP to stop whining and actually participate in solving problems rather than obstructing progress.
I can get with this. Once in a while, for effect, is one thing. But to make it the norm would not, as **Ravenman** and **Richard Parker** are trying to point out, serve the country well.
To some degree the Repubs have been doing it for some time, and I think it’s clear that it hasn’t been a boon in any way.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/194 "2009-10-05T16:49:56Z")
forget it.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/195 "2009-10-05T16:54:22Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> In other words, if all Grayson was saying was that the GOP wants people to die quickly because all of the GOP ideas to avoid that result are not going to work, that’s one thing. If Grayson was saying the GOP wants people to die quickly because that’s what the GOP prefers, that’s quite another thing entirely. \*\* The argument for his apology is that he was saying the latter.\*\*
Well, you’re the first person in the thread to have articulated that position, so yay for you.
But as it is crystal clear that Grayson was saying the former and NOT the latter, the argument, such as it is, has yet to be defended. Not that I would encourage anyone to attempt to do so. Given the choice between reading the tortuous, specious amd disingenuous drivel that such a defense would necessarily involve, and searching for free, high-quality, internet porn . . . well, I trust that I need not go into exhaustive detail about which would be a more productive use of my time.
Actually, what I’m about to do right now is take a nap.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/196 "2009-10-05T16:56:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> I have to say, when you said you changed your mind, I thought: “What?!? Someone on the SDMB changing their mind? My irony meter isn’t going off… could this be genuine? It’s just so… weird.” 🙂
Well, like I said, it’s nice when someone says what I’m thinking. It feels all liberating to throw off the shackles and say things outright, but just because it’s a nice feeling and enjoyable doesn’t make it sensible.
I don’t think I’m _completely_ immune to logic, just mostly. 😃
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/197 "2009-10-05T19:32:56Z")
Goodness! What is to be done? How do we mold ourselves to fit centrist civility, how do we back away from the radical extreme of “Change Now!” to “Change Pretty Soon, If Nobody Minds and Its Not Too Much Trouble!”
A tea party! There’s the ticket, a nice place setting with proper china and doilies, some Earl Grey…what? too radical? Some Lipton’s, perhaps? How many settings do you think we will need, then? How many of our opponents will we be expecting, to sip politely, pinkies akimbo, and murmur softly in the spirit of comity and compromise? A _fete_ worse than death.
When was the last time this approach accomplished anything? When have the Forces of Darkness examined our position, scratched their horned heads and said “Hey, you’re right, that’s grossly unfair to (labor, blacks, gays, what have you…). We will gladly sacrifice some of our money and power to further the cause of justice, where do we sign?”
Should that happy day arrive, I recommend you liquidate all your holdings and invest in umbrella manufacturing, because pig flop will be falling from the skies…
**Ravenmann** : “put your anti-cooty shields up” has a purpose, and I will explain. I do it as a gesture of respect to my reader, its my signal that I know, full well, that my citation comes from a source of unimpeachable truth, which is to say, it leans to the left.
I am intentsely annoyed by its opposite, the poster who offers us a citation from _NewsMuck_ or _Fox Gnaws_, or some other such. Might as well just say “I think you are so stupid, I can pull this shit on you and you won’t even notice.”
That said, I favor such sites as _Think Progress_ and _Talking Points Memo_, as they always include their links, and always substantiate their claims. And I do mean “always”. I have every confidence in them, they’ve not burned me yet. But I will still (usually, unless I forget) include my caveat, it is a gesture of respect to the reader, that I am not trying to pull a slow one.
If you find my style and opinions tiresome, as many do, you are cheerfully invited to note my cognomen, prominently displayed, top left. And skip merrily along, unburdened. Whatever floats yer boat, whatever loads yer software. Peace on you!
---
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/198 "2009-10-05T19:54:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> **Ravenmann** : “put your anti-cooty shields up” has a purpose, and I will explain.
I’m sorry if that came across as a shot at you personally. I was trying to make a joke about partisan news sources, and I guess the humor wasn’t as evident as I thought when I was writing it. I understand your point, and while the phrase still grates on me, I apologize for any offense I caused by that comment.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/199 "2009-10-05T20:22:45Z")
Gracefully done, sir. Hat doffed.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-alan-grayson-apologize-for-his-die-quickly-remarks/512211/200 "2009-10-13T22:22:14Z")
Oh dear, the Florida GOP is having trouble finding anyone willing to run against Grayson:
[Who’s taking on Grayson? Anyone? Hello?](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-locgrayson-seat-mike-thomas-101101309oct13,0,7103208.column)
[Webster: I’m not running against Grayson](http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/10/webster-im-not-running-against-grayson.html)
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