# Should all Firearms be banned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077 "2008-11-04T16:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/41 "2008-11-04T21:33:26Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I do not believe the 4th amendment was intended to give all individuals the right to own whatever kind of firearms they want. Good thing you don’t, because it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/42 "2008-11-04T21:33:26Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I do not believe the 4th amendment was intended to give all individuals the right to own whatever kind of firearms they want. [Indisputably true, as the 4th Amendment covers unreasonable searches & seizures.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) :dubious: > [@](#): > > However, even though I would never hunt, I respect the legitimate desires of the hunter to pursue his sport. Just out of idle curiosity, do you eat meat? ---
**Author:** ![masterofnone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@masterofnone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterofnone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/43 "2008-11-04T21:39:06Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I do think that military weapons should be banned. Why? I don’t know what your definition of military weapons is. Full auto? why isn’t the current system good enough? Other than full auto capability, “military weapons” are pretty weak in relation to hunting weapons if you’re talking about M-16’s, AK’s and the like. The main difference is that they’re designed purely for function, so they’re ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/44 "2008-11-04T21:42:36Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I think guns are generally a terrible thing and that the notion that one needs a gun for self-defense is generally laughable except for professionals who have intense training in how to use them for such purposes. More innocent people are killed by such guns than aspiring criminals (I can’t offer a cite on this but I have never heard of a story where a person who was not a police officer successfully defended their property or life using a gun, and dozens and dozens where a person’s own gun was turned against them, or was involved in an accidental shooting). Really? Have you been living under a rock? It happens all the time: I didn’t even have to think for a moment to recall reading about [this recent case](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/9C58494B45470714862574F3006D0CA6?OpenDocument) in which a woman fatally shot a man who broke into her home to rape her _a second time_, and a quick news search reveals many more. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/45 "2008-11-04T21:46:27Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > So; tell me this, OP, _WHY_ do you feel the need to ban/take my guns away, what have I done that warrants such a decision? I would wager that the OP is hunting for a way to avoid many thousands of deaths by handgun every year, possibly blinded by the idea that other countries, which have outlawed private ownership of handguns, also have few deaths by handgun… You’ll note that very few of the answers given thus far to the OP’s question are “I’d have a lot less fun on evenings and weekends.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/46 "2008-11-04T21:50:46Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I would wager that the OP is hunting for a way to avoid many thousands of deaths by handgun every year, possibly blinded by the idea that other countries, which have outlawed private ownership of handguns, also have few deaths by handgun…" Note that Switzerland _requires_ that every able-bodied man keep a fully-automatic rifle (“assault gun”) in their home or business and they also have a very low violent crime rate. Or that DC and NYC have banned handguns but have a very high violent crime rate. There is no significant decrease in violent crime tied to gun control laws. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/47 "2008-11-04T21:53:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that Switzerland _requires_ that every able-bodied man keep a fully-automatic rifle (“assault gun”) in their home or business and they also have a very low violent crime rate. Or that DC and NYC have banned handguns but have a very high violent crime rate. > > There is no significant decrease in violent crime tied to gun control laws. As you have posted what I came back to the thread to say, I willl simply provide a [citation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland) for your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/48 "2008-11-04T22:04:45Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > We have a skewed outlook on life that disagreement must be settled by violence more often than not. Come on. Americans don’t settle disagreements with violence 51% of the time. In fact Americans settle disagreements with violence a vanishingly small percentage of the time. When was the last time you settled a disagreement with your wife with violence? When was the last time you settled a disagreement with your children with violence? When was the last time you settled a disagreement with your parents with violence? When was the last time you settled a disagreement with your co-workers with violence? When was the last time you settled a disagreement with your boss with violence? When was the last time you settled a disagreement with any other human being with violence? This assertion is simply nonsense. As for the larger point, I see the OP has been clarified that firearms suddenly just vanish. Of course, this has to mean not that guns just disappear, since guns are fairly simple machines that can be easily manufactured again, and in a few years we’re back where we started. So now we’re talking about waking up tomorrow to find that the laws of physics have changed such that firearms no longer function. The trouble is that the laws of physics would have to change such that all sorts of chemical, electrical, magnetic, nuclear and mechanical reactions would have to change to eliminate every sort of firearm. Read S.M. Stirling’s “Dies the Fire” series referenced earlier. To eliminate firearms you’d have to use your magic wand to eliminate most technological progress since the beginning of the industrial era. It wouldn’t be enough to wave your magic wand and suddenly gunpowder doesn’t work, since there are dozens of explosives that could take the place of gunpowder…and already have, since only hobbyists use black powder nowadays. There are all sorts of other methods that could be used as ways to accelerate a small lump of metal to deadly speeds. Railguns that accelerate projectiles electromagnetically. Steam guns. Compressed air guns. Mechanical methods such as crossbows. And that’s not even getting into exotic weapons…tasers, poison darts, and so on. Do grenades still work? Molotov cocktails? But let’s say we’ve waved our magic wand and suddenly all these firearms and equivalent technologies no longer function. There’s good old fashioned swords and spears. You’re not just taking away guns from the criminals and hunters and sportsmen. You’re taking away guns from the cops and soldiers. We have this idea that criminals with guns are particularly fearsome because they can whip out a gun and kill someone without much effort. But this is to forget what life was like before the invention of guns. Guns are easy to use, anyone can learn to fire a gun and become a killer. A bullet doesn’t care how brave you are. But before the invention of guns it took a lifetime to master hand to hand combat. And this meant that those who had the leisure to spend all their time practicing fighting could easily outmatch those who spent their time working for a living. In other words, if you are an aristocrat you spend your life practicing with the sword, and with that training you can defeat any number of untrained peasants. And therefore those peasants have no choice when you ride into their village and demand a steady stream of tribute. Which neatly frees you from the need to work for a living, which frees you to spend all your time practicing the art of war, which allows you to dominate the peasants, which frees you from the need to work for a living. You see how this goes. This is the basis of the feudal system. When a peasant can whip out a musket and plug their master between the eyes, the feudal system suddenly doesn’t work so well anymore. If your local cops don’t have firearms, what do you do when a gang rolls into town and starts robbing the place in broad daylight? Nowadays a shopkeeper might have a shotgun underneath the counter. But more likely he doesn’t because there aren’t any roving gangs because firearms equalize the deadliness of a scrawny shopkeeper and a burly armored professional swordsman. The world is a better place because of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/49 "2008-11-05T00:49:01Z")
I don’t know exactly why these ‘ban the guns’ pieces of crap enrage me the way they do but they do and I don’t care how hypothetical the situation. If I have the money to buy a gun and I want one, then I see no reason why I should not have one. I’ve owned five guns in my lifetime and two of them were gifts; My ex wife sold one while I was in detox, three of them I gave to my son leaving me with one gun now. It is locked away in a safe place and it hasn’t been fired in over a year. But, dammit, it’s my damn gun. Leave me alone about it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/50 "2008-11-05T01:00:59Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Good thing you don’t, because it doesn’t. OK, second. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/51 "2008-11-05T01:03:26Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > They’re already banned in places like NYC and Washington and we can clearly see how useless that is. All banning does is make criminals out of legal gun owners, and give the criminals who ignore the ban an edge. And where do the criminals get the guns ? Stolen from legal gun owners. Eliminate private gun ownership and the criminals will largely be disarmed as well. > [@Lemur866](#): > > When a peasant can whip out a musket and plug their master between the eyes, the feudal system suddenly doesn’t work so well anymore. If your local cops don’t have firearms, what do you do when a gang rolls into town and starts robbing the place in broad daylight? Nowadays a shopkeeper might have a shotgun underneath the counter. But more likely he doesn’t because there aren’t any roving gangs because firearms equalize the deadliness of a scrawny shopkeeper and a burly armored professional swordsman. > > The world is a better place because of firearms. That has little to do with guns and everything to do with professional police forces and democratic government. A tyrant can crush his people, guns or not. And gangs will slaughter anyone who tries to play Punisher. If it was all about guns, gangs would be MORE powerful than they are. It’s organization that matters, not guns. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/52 "2008-11-05T01:03:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Just out of idle curiosity, do you eat meat? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/53 "2008-11-05T01:06:39Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > Why? I don’t know what your definition of military weapons is. Full auto? why isn’t the current system good enough? Other than full auto capability, “military weapons” are pretty weak in relation to hunting weapons if you’re talking about M-16’s, AK’s and the like. The main difference is that they’re designed purely for function, so they’re ugly. I am talking about full auto, armor-piercing bullets, other weapons designed for military purposes rather than hunting, law enforcement, or sport shooting. What’s the “current system”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/54 "2008-11-05T01:24:03Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/55 "2008-11-05T01:32:41Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Really? Have you been living under a rock? It happens all the time: I didn’t even have to think for a moment to recall reading about [this recent case](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/9C58494B45470714862574F3006D0CA6?OpenDocument) in which a woman fatally shot a man who broke into her home to rape her _a second time_, and a quick news search reveals many more. Missing something that happened in St. Louis but was not reported in the DC media hardly qualifies me as living under a rock (the only confirmation I could find for this story in Google News was a Kansas City paper’s site). I don’t go out and search these down every week, but I read and listen to news daily. If you want to compare anecdotes, look for accidental shootings (over [1,000 Google News hits](http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-34%2CGGLG%3Aen&hl=en&nolr=1&q=accidental+shooting) on the phrase just within the past _month_), or another [1400 news items](http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-34%2CGGLG%3Aen&nolr=1&hl=en&q=killed+shooting+argument&btnG=Search)within the last \*month \*on other shootings that occurred in the heat of an argument where lack of a gun would have made a life-or-death difference (including an argument over _genital size_). However, I have never found reliable statistics on this overall. At some point you have to ask whether society is better off with them or without them, same as lots of other decisions are made. An argument that responsible gun owners exist, and most of them probably are, does not automatically negate the social and human costs. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/56 "2008-11-05T01:52:53Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I am talking about full auto… Essentially banned already. Extremely difficult to acquire, only legal to do so in 50% or less of all states, and prohibitively expensive to purchase. The recent episode of an 8 year old being accidentally killed at a shooting range aside, your full auto guns have killed maybe a few people since they were heavily restricted in the 1930’s. I’m not sure what other goals a total ban would accomplish… > [@](#): > > …armor-piercing bullets, other weapons designed for military purposes rather than hunting, law enforcement, or sport shooting.What’s the “current system”? You mention hunting is ok apparently, but suggest banning armor piercing ammo. Most hunting rounds will pierce body armor. Which do you want banned the ammo or the gun? As far as “designed for military use” that accounts for about 100% of all guns in civilian hands if defined broad enough. Do you mean the scary looking black guns that are non-full auto copies of military guns? How exactly do you define “sporting guns.” I would venture that my definition may be significantly different. ---
**Author:** ![Frustrated\_Wonderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a4c791/32.png) [@Frustrated\_Wonderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frustrated_Wonderer)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/57 "2008-11-05T02:24:20Z")
I don’t like great debates, people are too up-tight here. I prefer friendly discussions than fierce debating, but I don’t make decisions here the mods do. And yes, I think “making” guns dissapear would reduce fatalities. I just don’t see advantages to having any form of fire-arms in the world at all. I’m not going to cite a website in order to prove that a bullet is more likely to kill you than being hit with a bat or stabbed with a knife. If you have any evidence pointing otherwise, feel free to share it. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/58 "2008-11-05T02:39:27Z")
Ted Kennedy’s car has killed more people than my gun ever will. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/59 "2008-11-05T02:42:29Z")
Well, which era were you more likely to die violently–the modern era, or back in the middle ages? Lots and lots of people over the centuries have been hacked to death with swords and stabbed with spears. Read some history. Violence wasn’t created by the invention of gunpowder. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077/60 "2008-11-05T02:51:52Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Ted Kennedy’s car has killed more people than my gun ever will. Unless you plan on melting your gun down tonight, how can you possibly make this claim? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-firearms-be-banned/471077.md?page=4)