# Should all schools be private? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699 "2013-05-07T14:17:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/41 "2013-05-07T19:15:22Z")
Here’s some data from India. From this [paper](http://economics.ouls.ox.ac.uk/12991/1/gprg-wps-071.pdf) > [@](#): > > National data on learning achievement levels in ASER2005 (Pratham, 2006) found that private school students of grades 2 to 5 were 37.4% more likely than government school students to > be able to read a text of grade 2 standard. They were also 50% more likely to be able to solve a 23 division problem (3 digits divided by 1 digit) > \ > These studies have been carried out in different parts of India (Tamil Nadu, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh respectively) and differ in several respects but they share the common conclusion that private school students generally outperform their public school counterparts in learning achievement even after controlling for schools student intakes. What’s interesting is this bit - > [@](#): > > Available evidence suggests not only that private schools are more effective than public schools in imparting cognitive skills in India but also that they have much lower unit costs than publicly funded (i.e. government and aided) schools. This is due largely to teacher salaries in private schools being only a fraction of those in publicly funded schools. Findings from five different states summarised in Kingdon (2006) show that in the early to mid-1990s, private school teachersí pay was about 40-50 % of government teachersí pay but that by 2002, this had fallen to only about 20%. Muralidharan and Kremer (2006), based on their 2003 national survey of rural schools in 20 Indian states conclude: ìeven conservatively, rural private school teacher salaries are typically around one fifth that of regular government teacher salaries and they are often as low as one tenth the salaries of regular government teachersî. Such massive private-public segmentation in the teacher labour market > can exist because of excess supply of educated individuals and because while the private sector pays market wages, government and aided school salaries are bureaucratically set minimum wages. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/42 "2013-05-07T19:19:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because this thread has a particular topic addressing whether government should get out of the school biz, and could private schools do a better job. Nobody is stopping you from starting a new thread if you wish to talk about something different. Can you name any business, at any time in history where the government was totally out of it? I can’t think of a single one. But by all means, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/43 "2013-05-07T19:25:11Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Here’s some data from India. From this [paper](http://economics.ouls.ox.ac.uk/12991/1/gprg-wps-071.pdf) > What’s interesting is this bit - I can’t open pdf files at work-does it say what percentage of children attending school go to private schools? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/44 "2013-05-07T19:27:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Your words, not mine. Yes, that’s why my name is attached to the post. > [@](#): > > Service industries are service industries, and education is a service. Baah, “tertiary industry” is just economists’ cant to categorize everything. Politicians render a service too, are _they_ an industry? > [@](#): > > I bet it isn’t, actually, considering how cheaply protein can be produced. Dead people are essentially “free”. Hell, if you do it right, they can even pay for themselves…he proposed modestly. > [@](#): > > Everything you’ve written has been about uniformity, so forgive me if I assumed too much. Equality of opportunity isn’t uniformity. > [@](#): > > There is no way to equalize the educability of millions of students from wildly different backgrounds, family structures, incomes, and cultures. Even if you dictate the budgets and curriculums shared by Wealthy Suburbville and Poor Innercitytown, the latter’s performance will be measurably lower due to factors well beyond your control as an educational system. It’s not simply a matter of spending. Good thing for my argument that I never mentioned _performance_ as something that needed equalizing, then.I’m talking about equalizing the inputs to the system. yes, the outcomes will vary - I believe they’ll vary _less_ with equality of opportunity, _not_ more. > [@](#): > > How do you test their competence? A military serviceman can be graded on fitness, knowledge, and carrying out missions. A teacher, the same. Mental fitness (academic results), knowledge (continued education and testing) and carrying out “missions” (postings to different schools) > [@](#): > > A teacher’s competence is demonstrated though a highly variable third party: the students. How do you isolate the teacher’s ability from the educability of the students? By averaging it out over a range of postings. 2 years in a good neighbourhood, two years in a bad one - shitty teaching will tell. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/45 "2013-05-07T19:41:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, that’s why my name is attached to the post. Cute, but I’m not treating human beings like products. > [@](#): > > Baah, “tertiary industry” is just economists’ cant to categorize everything. Politicians render a service too, are _they_ an industry? Yes. > [@](#): > > Good thing for my argument that I never mentioned _performance_ as something that needed equalizing, then.I’m talking about equalizing the inputs to the system. yes, the outcomes will vary - I believe they’ll vary _less_ with equality of opportunity, _not_ more. You’re sacrificing actual, valuable educations imparted by private schools for the ideal of equality of opportunity, while admitting that such equality won’t actually equalize outcomes. This sort of _Harrison Bergeron_ equality makes society worse off, not better. We need educated people, full stop. Deliberately sabotaging little Jimmy’s education so he doesn’t get too far ahead of little Joey, instead of just working on improving little Joey’s education, is monstrous. > [@](#): > > A teacher, the same. Mental fitness (academic results), knowledge (continued education and testing) and carrying out “missions” (postings to different schools) > > By averaging it out over a range of postings. 2 years in a good neighbourhood, two years in a bad one - shitty teaching will tell. Don’t you want your best teachers working with your worst students? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/46 "2013-05-07T19:47:22Z")
My mother was a private school teacher and I’ve never heard anyone argue for doing away entirely with public schools. And yes, I do think as a general rule, private schools do a better job, but that’s due a number of reasons which couldn’t realistically be replicated in a public school. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/47 "2013-05-07T19:50:00Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Here’s some data from India. From this [paper](http://economics.ouls.ox.ac.uk/12991/1/gprg-wps-071.pdf) > What’s interesting is this bit - The problem with such studies is that the private schools don’t exist independently of public schools. They exist in an environment in which the students tend to be those with the most-involved, and often wealthiest, parents (since less-involved parents won’t send their kids to a school that takes work to get them into). Private schools therefore get students whose parents prioritize education, and who are probably getting educational support at home. They’ll have lower costs for exceptional children overall (with obvious exceptions for schools that specialize in EC students). And they can pick and choose teachers: given the small number of teachers they need compared to public schools, they can take folks who don’t need teaching income as a primary income, often parents of kids who go to the private school and can afford not to be bringing in lots of money. The minimal government oversight means that the school may have better working conditions. Even shoddy teachers might have better results at a private school than decent teachers at a public school, since the students are selected for academic prowess. For all these reasons, it’s inaccurate to look at such studies and conclude that private schools are superior for education to public schools. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/48 "2013-05-07T20:17:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can’t open pdf files at work-does it say what percentage of children attending school go to private schools? > [@](#): > > ASER2006 (Pratham, 2007, p. 32) national sample survey of about 330,000 households across 16500 villages finds that 18.6 percent of all (and 19.5% of school-going) rural primary age children (7-10 year olds) attended private schools in 2006. Table 8 shows that in urban India, private schoolsí share of total enrolment in 2002 was between about 30 and 40 percent at different levels of education. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem with such studies is that the private schools don’t exist independently of public schools. They exist in an environment in which the students tend to be those with the most-involved, and often wealthiest, parents (since less-involved parents won’t send their kids to a school that takes work to get them into). Private schools therefore get students whose parents prioritize education, and who are probably getting educational support at home. They’ll have lower costs for exceptional children overall (with obvious exceptions for schools that specialize in EC students). And they can pick and choose teachers: given the small number of teachers they need compared to public schools, they can take folks who don’t need teaching income as a primary income, often parents of kids who go to the private school and can afford not to be bringing in lots of money. The minimal government oversight means that the school may have better working conditions. Even shoddy teachers might have better results at a private school than decent teachers at a public school, since the students are selected for academic prowess. > > For all these reasons, it’s inaccurate to look at such studies and conclude that private schools are superior for education to public schools. First off, did you miss the bit in the study that said it controls for student background? Second, I’d argue that just the fact that parents who prioritise education send their kids to private schools should tell you a lot about which one is better. Third, Indian government schools are truly horrible, but there’s a reason it is so. That reason is government was too powerful in India for too long, and got in too deep and stayed in too many things. [Here’s](http://r4d.dfid.gov.uk/PDF/Outputs/ImpOutcomes_RPC/OPI_KingdonMuzammil20081%5B1%5D.pdf) a great case study, if you have the time. (addition in \<\> brackets mine) > [@](#): > > The effectiveness of the arrangements governing an educational system depends on the motivations of key actors. This paper analyses the state of education in the Indian state ofUttarPradesh and the role that teachers have played in the political process. It describes how teachers have become embedded in the political system and the way teacher associations and unions have actively pursued demands through various strikes and other forms of actions.While teachers have been successful in improving pay,job security and service benefits, less progress has been made\<_this is highly diplomatic phrasing_\> on broader improvements in the schooling system such as the promotion of education in general or improving equity and efficiency in the system. To summarise - teacher incentives got misaligned. When the government decides what you get paid, what your parameters of success are, how you will be evaluated etc. teachers are no longer incentivised to teach well, but to influence government decisions. And governments are not formed nor broken on the issue of school quality, which anyway properly comes to light only many years later. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/49 "2013-05-07T20:22:49Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Second, I’d argue that just the fact that parents who prioritise education send their kids to private schools should tell you a lot about which one is better. It might be an indicator that _the parents_ are better and involve themselves in their children’s education. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/50 "2013-05-07T20:24:21Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > First off, did you miss the bit in the study that said it controls for student background? > > Second, I’d argue that just the fact that parents who prioritise education send their kids to private schools should tell you a lot about which one is better. No, I didn’t miss that part, but I’ve never seen a study that controlled for parent prioritization of academic performance for all kids. As a teacher, teaching a room full of such kids sounds like a lovely dream. Having a room with like 3/4 these kids and 1/4 kids whose parents disparage schools and teachers and only send their kids because they have to? Totally different dynamic. And yes, of course schools are better when everyone there is there because they value schools. That’s not controversial. I will freely admit that if I were teaching in the local prestigious private school I could get my kids to do amazing things. Heck, for the 25 minutes a day I get to work with the slightly-above to high-above-grade-level third graders, I’m teaching them binary numbers, game theory, and computer programming. That’s because I’m working with a group of highly motivated kids who get to go home and continue working on these engaging academic subjects on their home computers with parents who make space for them to do so. But we don’t just educate those kids. We educate everyone, because the real client for public schools is, after the kids themselves, society at large. We want universal education. So private schools can’t be our only answer. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/51 "2013-05-07T20:38:09Z")
**Czarcasm** - To your post of whether governments should be in education at all, I think they should set standards, provide testing and vouchers for all students. They shouldn’t be in delivery of education at all. The standards bits are a crapshoot too unfortunately. I know you’re probably looking at it from the point of view of religions intruding into the classroom, but government involvement is no guarantee of keeping religion out. Look at Pakistan’s government mandated textbooks for instance. They propagate hatred of Hindus, and India, and IMO are a big factor in keeping the countries at loggerheads. Indian standards and textbooks have generally done a good job, but when the Hindu leaning nationalist BJP came to power, it immediately mandated changes in text books to glorify Hinduism. I’d much rather that such power not be a socially acceptable option. So maybe governments can have one set of standards, with others providing competition? There already is something of that sort in India, with an international curriculum being followed by some very elite(ist?) schools. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/52 "2013-05-07T20:46:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Why not? Why should education with no competition be better than anything else that faces no competition? [Perverse incentives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive). Competition isn’t the magic cure-all many people like to pretend. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If a corporation buys up a business and liquidates it for a quick profit it is considered a successful move-not something I would want emulated in our schools. > > What would be the equivalent in a private-school setting? Selling off the building? Doing nothing to give the “students” a real education and just pocketing all the money for yourself would be an example. A common result of voucher schemes I understand. Another example would be a school that’s run by the same people who own a for-profit prison, and who have children arrested on made up pretexts so they can get paid more for holding them as a prisoner. Something similar to [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). > [@XT](#): > > You guys do realize you could have all private schools without it being the liberatrian nightmare many of you fear, right? No, we _can’t._ For both political and practical reasons a libertarian/theocratic nightmare is exactly what we’d get, and is exactly why the proponents of privatization want it the first place (they don’t think of it as a nightmare of course). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/53 "2013-05-07T20:47:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It might be an indicator that _the parents_ are better and involve themselves in their children’s education. Sure, it may, and ‘better’ parents are making the judgement that private schools are better. I think that’s a good indicator that private schools are better. I don’t rule out the possibility that it may just indicate that all good parents _only think_ private schools are better, and hence end up fulfilling their own prophecy, but I think it less likely. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We want universal education. So private schools can’t be our only answer. Why not? Let the government pay for those who can’t. Whatever the education budget is, divide that among all school going kids as vouchers (could be limited to economically backward kids if needed, though I’m not sure if that’s necessarily advisable), and provide for a testing mechanism to provide information to the parents. Why is that a priori worse than public schools? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/54 "2013-05-07T20:56:05Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Why not? Let the government pay for those who can’t. Whatever the education budget is, divide that among all school going kids as vouchers (could be limited to economically backward kids if needed, though I’m not sure if that’s necessarily advisable), and provide for a testing mechanism to provide information to the parents. Why is that a priori worse than public schools? Fred’s mom is an addict. She frequently doesn’t wake up in the morning in time to get Fred ready for school. She hated school and lets Fred know that every day. She hates his teachers–all teachers–on principle. She mocks him if he shows any academic interest. There’s a private school in the neighborhood just for her: it requires no homework, doesn’t make a fuss over attendance, and issues barely-hidden kickbacks to parents by spending the bulk of the voucher dollars on easily-resold items like iPads. There’s a private school in the neighborhood for the kids of parents who care: they require homework and attendance and expel kids who aren’t performing well. Where is Fred going to end up going? Multiply Fred by a million: where will all the Freds go? Public schools just give one baseline option, and it answers not to the parent but to society at large. Fred’s mom will send him to school, or she’ll talk to the truancy officer. If Fred’s not doing his homework, the social worker will pay a friendly visit to his house to see what’s going on. He’s held to high standards at school. Private school is often great for kids whose parents are actively engaged and who prioritize education. For kids whose parents don’t, it can be a nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/55 "2013-05-07T20:57:51Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, we can’t. For both political and practical reasons a libertarian/theocratic nightmare is exactly what we’d get, and is exactly why the proponents of privatization want it the first place (they don’t think of it as a nightmare of course). [/QUOTE] No, we wouldn’t. Ever. And it’s because of political and practical reasons we wouldn’t, despite folks like you fretting about it. We will NEVER get the government out of the system, and any system we put in place will basically be an extension of what we already have, merely modified in some minor way. Just like we’ll never get a liberal fantasy world with perfect socialism or whatever…ain’t going to happen. Instead, you’ll get aspects of the fantasy. Like the health care reform stuff. A public school reform would be much the same…something no one would be happy with, but something that the various groups could perhaps agree on enough to make it practical for some marginal change, with perhaps the current dominant political party getting a touch more of their fantasy and the current minority party getting a touch more lemon. But like the OP, feel free to fret about something that no one realistically thinks will ever happen, namely that the evil liberatrians (a.k.a. as ‘those that say’) are going to take over and get their way 100% and push through their fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/56 "2013-05-07T21:08:00Z")
FYI: The OP isn’t “fretting” about _anything_. Just weighing plusses and minuses, and asking for real world examples. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/57 "2013-05-07T21:18:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Public schools just give one baseline option, and it answers not to the parent but to society at large. Fred’s mom will send him to school, or she’ll talk to the truancy officer. If Fred’s not doing his homework, the social worker will pay a friendly visit to his house to see what’s going on. He’s held to high standards at school. Even if I take it for granted that government is a better agency to oversee kids education than parents(I’m genuinely not settled on this matter), you can have all the oversight of the sort you require with private schools too. Works far better in fact, because then government isn’t delivering a service _and_ overseeing it at the same time. Fewer conflicts of interest. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/58 "2013-05-07T21:18:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > FYI: The OP isn’t “fretting” about _anything_. Just weighing plusses and minuses, and asking for real world examples. As has been pointed out, there aren’t any…and even if there were, it’s not going to happen in the US. Taking the government out of the process would be a radical change that is pure fantasy, whether you are drooling in anticipation or, as seems more the case here, shivering in fear. What we will get, realistically in the actual ‘real world’ is some incremental change that will be a political compromise. As you don’t want to talk reality, however, I think it’s safe to say that our current system is much, much better than the fantasy system of zero government involvement, as it has the virtue of being realistic, as opposed to a fantasy or a strawman. So, rest easy there big hoss. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/59 "2013-05-07T21:20:48Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As has been pointed out, there aren’t any…and even if there were, it’s not going to happen in the US. Taking the government out of the process would be a radical change that is pure fantasy, whether you are drooling in anticipation or, as seems more the case here, shivering in fear. What we will get, realistically in the actual ‘real world’ is some incremental change that will be a political compromise. As you don’t want to talk reality, however, I think it’s safe to say that our current system is much, much better than the fantasy system of zero government involvement, as it has the virtue of being realistic, as opposed to a fantasy or a strawman. So, rest easy there big hoss. Why are you posting in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699/60 "2013-05-07T21:20:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > How do we know they are doing a good job? What’s the comparison? I’m sure the Big Three automakers thought they were making great cars, and would have truthfully said that they were working as hard as they could and innovating as well as anyone could. Then, imports started coming in, and we (and they) learned that they were not, in fact, making the best cars they could, they were barely making cars that were good enough for consumers’ low expectations. This is an interesting point. Not only were the Big Three automakers competing with each other, but they had already defeated American Motors, Studebaker, Willys, Hudson and a bunch of other rivals. By the standard of “competition makes a better product” the 1970s and 1980s should have been the pinnacle of American auto manufacturing, right? As for a real-word citation, the City of St. Louis had 31% of its students enrolled in charter schools, the publicly funded, privately run institutions that are supposed to be free of all the problems inherent in public schools. [The results can only be described as mixed](http://www.dese.mo.gov/faq/documents/charter-school-performance.pdf) – certainly nothing that shows one system is inherently better than the other. As a matter of fact, one operator had its charter revoked because it managed to place all its schools in [the bottom five percent of all schools](http://dese.mo.gov/news/2012/charter-transition.htm)- public and private - in the state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-all-schools-be-private/657699.md?page=4)