# Should America Tip ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883 "2003-05-08T12:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/21 "2003-05-08T16:00:50Z")
So? Our system works fine too. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/22 "2003-05-08T16:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*The restaurateur won’t necessarily lose anything, since the minor price rises will go straight to the workers’ salaries, like before. > \*\* Plus the extra taxation. You can’t forget the extra taxation. Julie ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/23 "2003-05-08T16:01:00Z")
Perhaps I am being obtuse here, ut my understanding of such an event is like this: 1. Tipping ends and employers must pay more to waiter to make up to minimum wage. 2. Prices go up due to customers having to cover the increased cost. 3. Wait staff no longer have an incentive to do very well, or if we reinstate moderate tipping, there is a relatively minor incentive to do so. In other words, its a hassle for employers, waistaff, and customers. Exactly how is this good for anyone? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/24 "2003-05-08T16:09:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\* The diner pays roughly the same, the worker is guaranteed a proper wage. > \*\* I don’t think that there is any sort of a movement from within the food serviceindustry to change the tipping customs prevalent here in the US. There’s just not concern about servers making a living wage. Mostly this is because servers who know how to wait tables make a living wage. Servers who can’t make a living wage move to another area of employment. From what I’ve seen, the push for removing tipping comes almost exclusively from without the industry. What I’m saying is that living wages for servers is a non-issue currently. ---
**Author:** ![smam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@smam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smam)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/25 "2003-05-08T16:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tekneek \* > \*\*The best make the most, and that is the way it should be. Only the worst waiters would benefit from such a change, and the best would be severely punished. > > A very bad idea. \*\* But surely this would benefit all the waiters by giving them a better starting base wage, and then you could still go on to tip whoever floated your gravy boat that night. That way the bad waiters would be stuck with minimum wage and perhaps try harder, but at the moment with the tipping culture they are pretty much guaranteed to get tips however they serve. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/26 "2003-05-08T16:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*Plus the extra taxation. You can’t forget the extra taxation. > > Julie \*\* Wo wo wo… one of the objections in the Pit thread to non-tippers was that restaurant workers have to pay tax on an estimate of their tips. So witholding tips is robbing restaurant workers of money because they have to pay it to the IRS. So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/27 "2003-05-08T16:19:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Wo wo wo… one of the objections in the Pit thread to non-tippers was that restaurant workers have to pay tax on an estimate of their tips. So witholding tips is robbing restaurant workers of money because they have to pay it to the IRS. > > So which is it? \*\* There are two different examples of taxation being discussed here. One is the taxes th eemployee pays on his wages, and the other is the taxes an employer pays on employee’s wages. Not tipping, under the current system, counts against an employees’ wages and employer compensation instead of tipping increases the employer paid taxes. So each kind of taxation is what it is. One is robbing workers, one is added expense. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/28 "2003-05-08T16:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smam \* > \*\*But surely this would benefit all the waiters by giving them a better starting base wage, and then you could still go on to tip whoever floated your gravy boat that night. > > That way the bad waiters would be stuck with minimum wage and perhaps try harder, but at the moment with the tipping culture they are pretty much guaranteed to get tips however they serve. > \*\* This is a different proposal than eliminating tipping. This is just upping the minimum wage for tipped employees. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/29 "2003-05-08T16:25:52Z")
Three problems: (1) The “Tip-off” would unduly harm wait staff while the system reorients itself. Don’t think restaurants will be eager to increase pay immediately, especially if _net_ revenue hasn’t increased substantially and sustainably. (2) Let’s say the wait staff sees its salary increased by $8.00/hour. Unfortunately, when payroll taxes, increased employer contribution to medicare and social security, and other payroll taxes are factored in, the cost to the establishment might be $12.00+ per hour. Prices will rise by **more** than should have been tipped under normal circumstances. _(numbers are illustrative only, and are greater than increases to minimum to reflect what wait staff may actually be currently earning and what might be needed to retain wait staff)_ (3) Without legislative change, owners can sink wages once tipping becomes common practice again, assuming it does. Of course, it’s the legislature that allows owners to pay less than minimum and assume tips will make the difference, it’s the legislature which mandates that taxes must be paid whether or not tips are received and it’s market conditions (what other owners are willing to pay) that keep wages where they are. This ties back into one - you’re harming people at the bottom of the chain, generally with the least means of weathering such a storm. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/30 "2003-05-08T16:26:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The restaurateur won’t necessarily lose anything, since the minor price rises… Restauranteurs can raise their prices and won’t lose anything? Not even customers? > [@](#): > > But surely this would benefit all the waiters by giving them a better starting base wage, and then you could still go on to tip whoever floated your gravy boat that night. > > That way the bad waiters would be stuck with minimum wage and perhaps try harder, but at the moment with the tipping culture they are pretty much guaranteed to get tips however they serve. No, bad waiters get a 10-15% tip on top of their $2.25 per hour, which probably brings them to your suggested “starting base wage”. In your scenario, the bad waiters get base wage and the customer has the option of not tipping. What’s the difference, aside from removing the customer as the final judge on how well s/he was served? Why go through massive reform to wind up with an identical end result? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/31 "2003-05-08T16:31:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\*Why go through massive reform to wind up with an identical end result? \*\* So that restaurant workers don’t get stiffed by non-tipping customers, who are entirely within their legal rights not to tip. Here’s what I’d do: \*\*TIPPING POLICY Here at Jjimmy’s Quality British Restaurant (aka “The Oxymoron”), we pay our workers well. Even the lowest-paid person in our kitchens makes more than minimum wage. Therefore, you’ll find our prices are slightly higher than you’re used to. Naturally, we still hope you’ll tip, but we ask you to tip based entirely on the quality of service, not out of a sense of duty. And we also believe that, because our workers are happier than in most other establishments, you’ll find that the service is better, too.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/32 "2003-05-08T16:36:09Z")
Is the tipping system broken? If so how? If not, why fix it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/33 "2003-05-08T16:40:21Z")
Yeah, and let’s not give salesmen bounses for exceding their goals. Let’s just pay all salesmen the same. That would be fair. And it would save the companies lots of money, too. In fact, let’s just pay EVERYONE the same. Why pay a doctor more than the guy who delivers your newspaper? Seriously, though, if you’ve spent any time in a country that doesn’t have tipping, you’ll be glad to tip back here. The service just sucks w/o it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/34 "2003-05-08T16:54:37Z")
Ask yourself this: 1. How many good waiters would rather work at Burger King, where there’s no tipping but you can make more than minimum wage if you work there a few years? Answer: none. 1. How many good waiters want to change the current system? Answer: none. I can’t see any advantage to changing things. ---
**Author:** ![Tekneek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Tekneek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tekneek)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/35 "2003-05-08T16:58:16Z")
I do not tip out of obligation. I tip when a server has earned it. The only tip amount I give away, is a 4 cent tip. Unless you are really horrible, you are gauranteed 4 pennies from me. Anything above that is earned. I often tip anywhere from 20% to as high as 35%, but amounts have been as low as 4 pennies. ---
**Author:** ![smam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@smam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smam)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/36 "2003-05-08T16:59:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*This is a different proposal than eliminating tipping. This is just upping the minimum wage for tipped employees. \*\* My proposal was to eliminate all tipping for a brief period so to shine a light on the fact that these guys are officially getting paid less that minimum wage. So if the restaurant wage was the only source of income the owners would have to raise their rates by law and if like in my country wage rises are not reversible then this would give them a more secure wage. Also the point about it being rude to ask someone how much they get paid, I meant this in the brotherhood spirit of the whole thing where the patrons stand up for the waiters and actively report those who would continue to pay less than minimum if tip-off came about. I could well imagine that a lot of waiters may not have the moxy to stand up to their own employers. The point is that once rates are up, we can then go on to tip those that deserve it more and not feel so guilty about exercising our rights not to tip. And if wages go up and food prices also go up would this not help the economy? I thought spending was good for the economy. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/37 "2003-05-08T17:06:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > **Is the tipping system broken. > If so how?** As I said above, restaurant workers can get stiffed by people who don’t want to play by the social rules, because they’re in their legal right not to tip _for any reason_. Hence the reason for all the Pit threads and complaints. Fix it so that tipping is still in existence as a bonus for good service, but so that workers can’t get screwed by tightwads. ---
**Author:** ![Tekneek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Tekneek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tekneek)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/38 "2003-05-08T17:16:08Z")
Spending money is good for the economy. When the economy is down, raising prices is not good as it reduces the demand for your product/service. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/39 "2003-05-08T17:21:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smam \* > \*\* > My proposal was to eliminate all tipping for a brief period so to shine a light on the fact that these guys are officially getting paid less that minimum wage. So if the restaurant wage was the only source of income the owners would have to raise their rates by law and if like in my country wage rises are not reversible then this would give them a more secure wage. > \*\* I’m sorry. I didn’t notice who had posted that. I thought it was a new proposal entirely.:o > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smam \* > \*\* I could well imagine that a lot of waiters may not have the moxy to stand up to their own employers. > \*\* Maybe so, but they are NOT reluctant to change jobs. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smam \* > \*\* > The point is that once rates are up, we can then go on to tip those that deserve it more and not feel so guilty about exercising our rights not to tip. > \*\* Guilt is a personal problem. Waiters and waitresses don’t have a problem with tipping in acordance with service when _they_ go out to eat at a restaurant. The best and the worst guests a server can have are other servers. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smam \* > \*\* > And if wages go up and food prices also go up would this not help the economy? I thought spending was good for the economy. > \*\* Prices\<\>spending ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883/40 "2003-05-08T17:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tekneek \* > \*\*Tipping is important. It serves two purposes (1) rewards those who really do well with an incentive to continue their outstanding service and (2) weeds out those who don’t provide good service. > > I don’t feel an obligation to tip. I tip because the service warrants it. \*\* Why should waiters work on your reward based method? You don’t reward the guy at Kinko’s because is more efficient than his co-worker. I think **JJim’s** idea is the best. Don’t forget one other minor detail. Waitstaff are generally offered NO paid medical benefits, sick days or paid vacation time. How many other professions could get away with that? I am surprised there isn’t a revolt! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-america-tip/173883.md?page=3)