# Should American Students Get Islamic Holidays Off from School? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215 "2015-03-04T18:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/1 "2015-03-04T18:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Wednesday, Mayor Bill de Blasio announced that New York City public schools will observe two Islamic holidays, starting this year. Students will be given the day off on two Muslim holy days: Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. > > While the mayor said the policy is being created to reflect diversity in the city, critics of the plan are quick to question whether giving students more days off from school is the best decision… > > According to The New York Times, there are an estimated 600,000 to 1 million Muslims living in New York City, with about 95 percent of Muslim children attending public schools. Overall, Muslim children make up about 10 percent of the New York City public school student body. > **[Why NYC students will be getting Islamic holidays off this year](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0304/Why-NYC-students-will-be-getting-Islamic-holidays-off-this-year)** > > New York City public schools will now observe two major Muslim holidays. Is this a sustainable approach to religion within the education system? And will the school staff be paid for these holidays too? I am negative about this for cost and educational reasons. Anyone else have any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/2 "2015-03-04T19:13:31Z")
At some point, there are a sufficient number of students who will be absent on a given holiday–which is their constitutional right–that it just makes sense to make it school-wide. 10% seems like a pretty reasonable point to me. There is also an equality of treatment issue. In some places, school districts recognize Jewish holidays and not Islamic holidays even though there are not significantly more Jewish students than Muslim students. It’s a small gesture of accommodation to a group that is among the most mistreated and maligned in contemporary American life. Worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/3 "2015-03-04T19:24:11Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [Why NYC students will be getting Islamic holidays off this year - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0304/Why-NYC-students-will-be-getting-Islamic-holidays-off-this-year) > > And will the school staff be paid for these holidays too? > > I am negative about this for cost and educational reasons. Anyone else have any thoughts? No, and and they shouldn’t get Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Cthulhian etc. holidays off either. They should make accommodations for students whose parents keep them home so they can make up the missed work. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/4 "2015-03-04T19:45:18Z")
In addition to what **Richard Parker** already said, I don’t understand why there is an assumption that there will be two fewer days of school. I haven’t seen any articles that say there will be fewer days of school - they all say two holdidays aer being added to the calendar, but nothing about the total number of instructional days. Making up two days can be accomplished in a number of ways, the easiest of which is probably to start one day earlier in September and end one day later in June. There’s are always differences from year to year - is school open on Election Day or not ( I believe NYC schools only close for Presidential elections)? Is there a single continuous spring recess that covers Good Friday and Passover or is it broken up? Is Dec 24 on a Monday or Jan 2 on a Friday and it makes more sense to add a day to that vacation than to open and heat the school for a single day? On preview- **Cumberdale** , The problem with your idea isn’t the students missing school and having to make it up. The problem is when 80% of your teachers celebrate Religious holiday X and you have almost no staff on that day. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/5 "2015-03-04T20:01:09Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > In addition to what **Richard Parker** already said, I don’t understand why there is an assumption that there will be two fewer days of school. I haven’t seen any articles that say there will be fewer days of school - they all say two holdidays aer being added to the calendar, but nothing about the total number of instructional days. In my state, I believe the total number of days in a school year is set by state law. I don’t know what it would be in NY. Hereabouts we generally allow for “snow days” where schools are closed due to weather. So if the schools are closed for two days in February, they let out for summer two days later in June. I don’t see the objection if NY tacks two more days on the end of the year to make up for the Muslim holidays - I assume they do so automatically for Christmas. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/6 "2015-03-04T20:36:34Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > No, and and they shouldn’t get Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Cthulhian etc. holidays off either. They should make accommodations for students whose parents keep them home so they can make up the missed work. This has been the trend in my area for some time; everything moving to secular holidays. I think the only religious holidays left are Christmas (winter break). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/7 "2015-03-04T20:52:55Z")
[Eugene Kontorovich](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/13/the-menorah-principle-and-the-unravelling-of-public-religiosity/) makes a convincing case that the only holidays that should be celebrated are Christian ones. His reasoning for this is that 1) it’s better to have religion in the public square than no religion, and 2) we can’t give equal status to every religion, because there are a multitude, and the best place to draw the line is Christianity. Either of these assumptions could be attacked, of course, and in a highly diverse place like NYC it might very well be better to permit Islam to have some official holdiays. But for America at large, the line really should be drawn at Christianity. > [@](#): > > In America, Christianity is different from other faiths in one salient respect. Christians are 84 percent [down to 78.4% in 2014!] of the population while the runners up [are less than 2 percent each]. > > ``` > For better or worse, the nation was founded by Protestants and built by Christians, who indelibly marked American culture with the trappings of their faith. It is hubris to somehow think that one`s tiny group is being shortchanged when the festivals receive less public recognition than those of the primary religion. > > Call this demand for equal status the “Menorah Principle.”… Once this principle triumphs, equity dictates that it must apply to all groups. The game plays out much like affirmative action, with its ever-growing list of preferred categories. Other groups, like the Muslims, inevitably piggy-back on the Jews` victories. > > ``` > > […] > The list is sure to grow. Groups that at first don`t particularly care will eventually demand the same treatment as the others, if only to avoid being left behind when the rest are made “equal”. Given America`s vast diversity, the Menorah Principle is untenable, even destructive. Take holidays for starters. If Christmas is an official national holiday, then why not the twelve days of Kwanzaa and the month-long Muslim festival of Ramadan? Even the calendar year is a scarce resource: If we honor all the special claims of the diverse U.S. populace, the many holidays would leave little time left for work or school. > > ``` > Unless society draws a line—and the only obvious place to draw it is at Christianity—an unmanageable tumult will ensue: gridlock in the public square. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/8 "2015-03-04T20:55:29Z")
> [@New York Times](#): > > According to The New York Times, there are an estimated 600,000 to 1 million Muslims living in New York City, A search on Google turns up the following: [http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/New-York-County-NY.html](http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/New-York-County-NY.html) > **[Best Places to Live | Compare cost of living, crime, cities, schools and...](https://www.bestplaces.net/religion/state/new_york)** > > Best Places to Live | Compare cost of living, crime, cities, schools and more. These sources put the percentage of New Yorkers who are Muslim at 2 or 3%. That’s very far short of the “600,000 to 1 million” number. I’m not sure which one is right, but I’d hope Bill de Blasio got correct figures before making this decision. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/9 "2015-03-04T21:00:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > At some point, there are a sufficient number of students who will be absent on a given holiday–which is their constitutional right–that it just makes sense to make it school-wide. 10% seems like a pretty reasonable point to me. Exactly right. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/10 "2015-03-04T21:01:00Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > A search on Google turns up the following: > > [http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/New-York-County-NY.html](http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/New-York-County-NY.html) > > [New York Religion](http://www.bestplaces.net/religion/state/new_york) > > These sources put the percentage of New Yorkers who are Muslim at 2 or 3%. That’s very far short of the “600,000 to 1 million” number. I’m not sure which one is right, but I’d hope Bill de Blasio got correct figures before making this decision. Well, for starters, I’m guessing he knows the difference between New York County and New York City. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/11 "2015-03-04T21:19:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Well, for starters, I’m guessing he knows the difference between New York County and New York City. I took a look at the other 4 counties and the numbers are in line - 2-3%. But that’s total population, not the public school population which may be skewed quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/12 "2015-03-04T21:23:21Z")
There is no accurate tally of religious adherents for New York City. That’s why the _NY Times_ quoted a range. We don’t ask on the census, and there is scant polling on the subject. You’ll see that the sources do indeed range from roughly 600,000 to one million (actually a larger range, but the most reliable data has it in that range). Here’s the Columbia study putting it at 10% in 2008. Certainly higher now. [http://www.tc.columbia.edu/i/media/6581\_musnycreport.pdf](http://www.tc.columbia.edu/i/media/6581_musnycreport.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/13 "2015-03-04T21:24:01Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I took a look at the other 4 counties and the numbers are in line - 2-3%. But that’s total population, not the public school population which may be skewed quite a bit. Nor would it take into account any concentration of population by school. 2-3% in the total population might well mean 10% at some schools. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/14 "2015-03-04T21:26:33Z")
How does the mayor make policy for the schools? Is there no school board and a superintendent? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/15 "2015-03-04T21:33:16Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > [Eugene Kontorovich](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/13/the-menorah-principle-and-the-unravelling-of-public-religiosity/) makes a convincing case that the only holidays that should be celebrated are Christian ones. His reasoning for this is that 1) it’s better to have religion in the public square than no religion, and 2) we can’t give equal status to every religion, because there are a multitude, and the best place to draw the line is Christianity. Either of these assumptions could be attacked, of course, and in a highly diverse place like NYC it might very well be better to permit Islam to have some official holdiays. But for America at large, the line really should be drawn at Christianity. In our country, Christmas isn’t _just_ a Christian holiday; it’s also a secular one, observed by millions who don’t consider themselves Christians. Other than that, what Christian holiday already gets, or should get, public recognition? Easter? It’s on a Sunday, when schools are closed anyway. Good Friday? Often coincides with Spring Break in many places, but… I actually don’t see a problem with treating all religions, including Christianity, equally, whether by giving everyone one or two days a year off if that day is important to a significant number of people, or else by observing no religious holidays officially but allowing students to stay home once in a while on days that are important to them. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/16 "2015-03-04T21:51:14Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > [Eugene Kontorovich](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/13/the-menorah-principle-and-the-unravelling-of-public-religiosity/) makes a convincing case that the only holidays that should be celebrated are Christian ones. His reasoning for this is that 1) it’s better to have religion in the public square than no religion, and 2) we can’t give equal status to every religion, because there are a multitude, and the best place to draw the line is Christianity. Either of these assumptions could be attacked, of course, and in a highly diverse place like NYC it might very well be better to permit Islam to have some official holdiays. But for America at large, the line really should be drawn at Christianity. Which is why Christmas is a national holiday, but Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are not. But what does this have to do with the issue at hand? While Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, etc are very small minorities on a national level, they are **not** small in certain local jurisdictions, and school calendars are decided on a local level. When I was a kid in Philly, 4 out of the 5 teachers I had in elementary school (K-4) were Jewish (as I am). That is not representative of the entire school system, but the percentage of Jewish faculty was sufficiently high that it was impossible to get enough substitute teachers for the Jewish High Holidays, not to mention the expense of paying them if you could get them. So the Philly schools were closed on those days. When I was in high school in Alabama, the schools were definitely _not_ closed for the Jewish holidays, and I was absent and made up the work later. Whether or not to recognize religious holidays with school closure should be a purely practical matter of staffing and number of students who will likely be absent. If there is now a sufficiently large number of Muslim students and staff in NYC, they should probably close the schools on Muslim holidays. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/17 "2015-03-04T21:56:42Z")
Upstate New Yorker here. State institutions of higher education in this area routinely observe Jewish holidays, and nobody seems to have a problem with that. No reason why Muslim holidays shouldn’t be treated similarly in places where they’re as demographically important. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/18 "2015-03-04T22:03:05Z")
> [@RickG](#): > > Whether or not to recognize religious holidays with school closure should be a purely practical matter of staffing and number of students who will likely be absent. If there is now a sufficiently large number of Muslim students and staff in NYC, they should probably close the schools on Muslim holidays. That’s my thinking as well. It would make sense to say… have no school on the high holy days in NYC or other heavily Jewish population centers, but probably wouldn’t make much sense in Salt Lake City, where April 6 (founding of Mormon church) might be more appropriate. Muslim holidays in places like Dearborn Michigan would also make sense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/19 "2015-03-04T22:04:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > In our country, Christmas isn’t _just_ a Christian holiday; it’s also a secular one, observed by millions who don’t consider themselves Christians. > > Other than that, what Christian holiday already gets, or should get, public recognition? Easter? It’s on a Sunday, when schools are closed anyway. Good Friday? Often coincides with Spring Break in many places, but… I actually don’t see a problem with treating all religions, including Christianity, equally, whether by giving everyone one or two days a year off if that day is important to a significant number of people, or else by observing no religious holidays officially but allowing students to stay home once in a while on days that are important to them. But there are effectively an unlimited number of religions. If you give every religion one or two days off a year, every day will be a holiday. When you look at a breakdown of religions by amount of adherents, the only clear line is with Christianity, which has dozens of times more adherents than Judaism. RickG: I don’t really know enough about NYC politics to comment on that specifically–my point was more about America in general. But if the real reason for school holidays is that too many teachers would be absent for school to function, then that should be the criterion used to make decisions. But it seems like De Blasio and friends are looking at the composition of students instead. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215/20 "2015-03-04T22:12:27Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > But there are effectively an unlimited number of religions. If you give every religion one or two days off a year, every day will be a holiday. When you look at a breakdown of religions by amount of adherents, the only clear line is with Christianity, which has dozens of times more adherents than Judaism. The question isn’t how many religions there are, but how many students and/or teachers will be absent on a particular day due to a religious holiday. While Christianity is the dominant religion in the US as a whole, in many schools there are large percentages of Jews, Muslims, or possibly some other religions that warrant taking the day off. The national numbers are irrelevant; what matters are the local numbers. And if 10-20% of your school population is going to out one day, it makes sense to make that day a holiday. > [@](#): > > But if the real reason for school holidays is that too many teachers would be absent for school to function, then that should be the criterion used to make decisions. But it seems like De Blasio and friends are looking at the composition of students instead. I’m not sure why you think teachers would be the criterion. Funding for schools is based on pupils in seats - it makes sense to avoid having school on days where a lot of students are not there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-american-students-get-islamic-holidays-off-from-school/714215.md?page=2)