# Should Antifa violence be condemned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902 "2018-08-20T05:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/201 "2018-08-22T17:33:13Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > … Which is to say that there are no innocent victims. The people who get hurt are the ones who show up at these events on purpose. … You don’t think Heather Heyer was an innocent victim? I’m certain that viewpoint won’t be popular around here. > [@eschereal](#): > > Yes, there are obnoxious or dangerous people who are ideologically similar to me. Does that mean I should reject that ideology, because of some bad seeds? If that is the case, where do you suggest I go where there are no bad seeds? No one’s asking you to reject your leftist ideology in its entirety. The OP asked “Should Antifa violence be condemned?” I would have hoped more Dopers on the left would have the moral fortitude to do at least that much. It’s not an indictment of environmentalism, or #MeToo or whatever your pet issues are, just a rejection of violent and dangerous tactics, which happen to be practiced by fringe leftists. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/202 "2018-08-22T17:49:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What % of your countrymen do you think would be appalled upon learning that Antifa beat a (non-Nazi) guy over the head for carrying the American flag, something the Antifa thugs called a “fascist symbol”? Personally, I suspect that percentage is quite high, and it’s that high percentage of our countrymen that I referred to as “mainstream America”, but I’m on the edge of my seat waiting for your answer: What % of your countrymen do you think are appalled by [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwE620VkaD0)? I don’t even know what I saw there. First, there’s this guy slapping somebody on the butt with…a fan? Some sort of fly swatter? Apparently, to no real effect. Then he hits the guy in the head with the same…what? Nerf bat?..and the guy falls to ground grievously injured. What _was_ that guy holding? But my question was about you invoking the opinions of mainstream America. I asked if you represent mainstream America. Apparently, that question moved you to change the subject. Hey, you don’t want to answer, no prob, Bob. I have no authority, never have had any. Just wondered if you thought you represent “mainstream America”. And you ducked it. Which is a more revealing response than you seem to realize. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/203 "2018-08-22T17:52:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [Captain America Is No Longer a Supervillain, He's a Monster](https://io9.gizmodo.com/captain-america-is-no-longer-a-supervillain-hes-a-mons-1794887713) > > That’s because he’s working for Hydra. That’s fake news. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/204 "2018-08-22T17:53:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t even know what I saw there. First, there’s this guy slapping somebody on the butt with…a fan? Some sort of fly swatter? Apparently, to no real effect. Then he hits the guy in the head with the same…what? Nerf bat?..and the guy falls to ground grievously injured. What _was_ that guy holding? You also missed the part where the attacker held up his Antifa membership card. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/205 "2018-08-22T17:55:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t even know what I saw there. First, there’s this guy slapping somebody on the butt with…a fan? Some sort of fly swatter? Apparently, to no real effect. Then he hits the guy in the head with the same…what? Nerf bat?..and the guy falls to ground grievously injured. What _was_ that guy holding? From the Oregonian article I’ve cited a couple of times now: > [@](#): > > As Welch and the counter-protesters wrangle over the flag, another masked counter-protester begins to strike Welch’s body from behind using a weapon concealed in black fabric. > > That person then uses the weapon to club Welch on the back of the head, causing him to collapse instantly. The demonstrator with the weapon wanders off. > > “My bones turned to Jell-O and I just went down,” said Welch, who believes he was struck with a metal object affixed to the end of the weapon. > [@elucidator](#): > > But my question was about you invoking the opinions of mainstream America. I asked if you represent mainstream America. Apparently, that question moved you to change the subject. Hey, you don’t want to answer, no prob, Bob. I have no authority, never have had any. Just wondered if you thought you represent “mainstream America”. And you ducked it. Which is a more revealing response than you seem to realize. I thought the question was so silly it didn’t merit a response. Of course I don’t “represent” them (and never claimed that I did), but I do _understand_ them. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/206 "2018-08-22T17:58:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I thought the question was so silly it didn’t merit a response. Of course I don’t “represent” them (and never claimed that I did), but I do _understand_ them. Cite for how you gained your expertise? I don’t think that you do. Who do you consider as “mainstream” Americans? Do you think you are a mainstream American? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/207 "2018-08-22T17:58:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You also missed the part where the attacker held up his Antifa membership card. Is that the requirement now? People have to hold up membership cards or we can’t know what group / movement they are a part of? Of all those alleged Nazis in Charlottesville, how many do you think held up membership cards? It’s a group that commits crimes and consequently strives to hide their identity. No shit they didn’t hold up their membership card for the camera. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/208 "2018-08-22T18:00:27Z")
One hint \*might \*be that people showing up in masks and hoods are probably not interested in engaging in civil discourse. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/209 "2018-08-22T18:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think this will be particularly controversial but here we go. I was very wrong. I should have known that everything is controversial on the SDMB. I honestly didn’t think this thread would go anywhere near this long. Although it does seem to have morphed from antifa violence of the rioting kind (i.e. property damage) to is it ok for antifa to punch Nazis? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/210 "2018-08-22T18:05:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t think Heather Heyer was an innocent victim? Yes, I think she was not an “innocent victim”. She was not a random person getting a snack at a hot dog stand. She showed up to take part in the counter-protest. Which does not change the circumstances of her death. She in no way deserved to be one more notch in the burning cross. > [@](#): > > No one’s asking you to reject your leftist ideology in its entirety. The OP asked “Should Antifa violence be condemned?” I would have hoped more Dopers on the left would have the moral fortitude to do at least that much. I actually have, in a general sort of way: the old “_war decides not who’s right but who’s left_” idea. We shall see what happens when they cause a death. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/211 "2018-08-22T18:06:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is that the requirement now? People have to hold up membership cards or we can’t know what group / movement they are a part of? Of all those alleged Nazis in Charlottesville, how many do you think held up membership cards? Not sure. But I don’t recall myself calling anyone in Charlottesville a Nazi, since how would I know unless they say they are a Nazi? Similar to how you don’t know that guy was Antifa. But you have no problems with declaring it. Seems strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/212 "2018-08-22T18:09:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Not sure. But I don’t recall myself calling anyone in Charlottesville a Nazi, since how would I know unless they say they are a Nazi? > > Similar to how you don’t know that guy was Antifa. But you have no problems with declaring it. > > Seems strange to me. The Oregonian declared it. I have no problem believing them. ETA: am I to understand that your personal rule (is it a new rule?) is that you will only call someone a label they themselves declare that they are? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/213 "2018-08-22T18:10:01Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Yes, I think she was not an “innocent victim”. She was not a random person getting a snack at a hot dog stand. She showed up to take part in the counter-protest. Are non-violent counter-protesters equivalent to violent neo-Nazi rally marchers, in your eyes? No, she was indeed an innocent victim of them. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/214 "2018-08-22T18:14:09Z")
So we’re 210 messages into this thread, and I see the right-leaning faction is basically ignoring all of the “yes, of course violence should be condemned, except maybe as a defense against other violence” messages to answer their imaginary strawmen. But tell me, have we yet even determined if Antifa even exists in any real sense? Other than as a recurrent boogyman for the Fox News crowd, I’ve never even heard the word used in the last year or so, certainly not as any sort of even loosely-organzed group. Frankly, this whole Antifa thing sounds like “splinter cells,” and “immigrant crime wave” and “fraudulent voters” and “refugees with no background checks” and “welfare queens” and all the other stuff that the right really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really wants us to be afraid of, NONE OF WHICH ACTUALLY EXIST IN ANY NUMBERS. The fact that they keep throwing the same two or three incidents out as “proof” of these things pretty clearly demonstrates that none of them are real, while ignoring the motes in their own eyes (hate crimes really ARE up, for example). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/215 "2018-08-22T18:23:36Z")
Well, the Oregonian said that one guy is Antifa, so it must be a real group. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/216 "2018-08-22T18:25:51Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > So we’re 210 messages into this thread, and I see the right-leaning faction is basically ignoring all of the “yes, of course violence should be condemned, except maybe as a defense against other violence” messages to answer their imaginary strawmen. I think you’re ignoring the various posts that have defended / supported / justified / promised violence for things other than self defense in this thread. > [@TimeWinder](#): > > But tell me, have we yet even determined if Antifa even exists in any real sense? Other than as a recurrent boogyman for the Fox News crowd, I’ve never even heard the word used in the last year or so, certainly not as any sort of even loosely-organzed group. I can’t say what YOU may have determined, but [Nancy Pelosi seems convinced](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/30/pelosi-condemns-violent-actions-of-antifa-protesters/?utm_term=.709553ece29a). Is she in the habit of condemning imaginary strawmen? Is WaPo in the habit of publishing articles about groups that don’t really exist? > [@TimeWinder](#): > > … The fact that they keep throwing the same two or three incidents out as “proof” of these things pretty clearly demonstrates that none of them are real… We throw out the ones caught on video precisely because we can determine that they are, in fact, real. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/217 "2018-08-22T18:26:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ETA: am I to understand that your personal rule (is it a new rule?) is that you will only call someone a label they themselves declare that they are? For the most part, yes. I’m sure I can come up with a couple of exceptions (like moron, but I’m not sure that counts). It saves quite a lot of time when dealing with people. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/218 "2018-08-22T18:29:05Z")
Which lefty leaders offered to pay the legal expanses of people arrested for political assault? Was it Bernie? Granny Pelosi? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/219 "2018-08-22T18:35:38Z")
Soros, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/220 "2018-08-22T19:09:22Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > So we’re 210 messages into this thread, and I see the right-leaning faction is basically ignoring all of the “yes, of course violence should be condemned, except maybe as a defense against other violence” messages to answer their imaginary strawmen. > > But tell me, have we yet even determined if Antifa even exists in any real sense? Other than as a recurrent boogyman for the Fox News crowd, I’ve never even heard the word used in the last year or so, certainly not as any sort of even loosely-organzed group. > > Frankly, this whole Antifa thing sounds like “splinter cells,” and “immigrant crime wave” and “fraudulent voters” and “refugees with no background checks” and “welfare queens” and all the other stuff that the right really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really wants us to be afraid of, NONE OF WHICH ACTUALLY EXIST IN ANY NUMBERS. > > The fact that they keep throwing the same two or three incidents out as “proof” of these things pretty clearly demonstrates that none of them are real, while ignoring the motes in their own eyes (hate crimes really ARE up, for example). No actual numbers? I guess the violent antifa fighting the violent Nazis is all make believe? By your logic all this hand wringing over so called Nazis is just an attempt to manipulate a narrative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902.md?page=12)