# Should Antifa violence be condemned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902 "2018-08-20T05:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/41 "2018-08-20T17:48:32Z")
Trumpists and other right-wingers seem to think that if they can find one Hillary voter somewhere whe did something just as heinous as Trump et al do, it’s a wash — _Tu quoque_. “Trump is forced to tell 17 lies per day because a Democratic postmaster in Oshkosh told a white lie once.” It would all be amusing if the Hannity-Jones viewers were just a few doped senior citizens in nursing homes. But instead they’ve taken over the country. :eek: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Is that the best you’ve got? They apparently burnt down one car? > … Burning some guy’s limo on Inauguration Day is wrong! > There. I’ve said it! You can say it too if you like. Careful; the right-wing word-twisters may claim you’re condoning violence on ever day except Inaug Day! I’ll exclude the entire week: _You should not burn that car on Monday. You must not burn that bus on Tuesday. Not in the park. Not in the dark. Not for a lark. Not with a spark. Don’t burn that truck on Wednesday or Thursday. Leave it be on Friday and Saturday. Don’t kill that Nazi on a Sunday. Just get high and make it a fun day. Not with a fall. Not in a brawl. Not in the hall. Not in the mall. You must not burn that car at all!_ I see **octopus** has joined us. In another thread he is convinced that most or all SDMB liberals applaud antifa violence, though he couldn’t remember the name of a single one. I hope the Dopers who support anti-Nazi violence confess to refresh his memory. But I’m not sure who you are — Most of you progressives didn’t even want to bomb Saddam Hussein. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/42 "2018-08-20T18:10:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m talking about those who are defending the party crashers as being mostly good people, and how those apologists are wrong. I can’t explain this any clearer. You could show us an example of such an apologist. You could then direct your indignation at a real person. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/43 "2018-08-20T18:25:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not talking about those whose party is being crashed. I’m talking about those who are defending the party crashers as being mostly good people, and how those apologists are wrong. I can’t explain this any clearer. Yeah, you are. You’re talking about the non-violent Antifa people, saying they have some obligation to leave the group because of the violent party crashers. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/44 "2018-08-20T18:41:53Z")
I did want to discuss this, but it seems people have already drawn the lines and set things up where, if I say what I want to say, it will be interpreted as different than what I mean. Since I don’t know how to get around this, I’ll just say what I wanted to say, and let the chips fall where they may. **Should Antifa violence be condemned?** You can’t really ask a question like that without specifics. There is this meme in society that violence is always wrong, but few who argue this actually believe it. Those people have no problem supporting the military, for example. They inherently thus argue that, if the cause is just enough, and the need high enough, violence can be allowed. So then the question becomes whether or not a specific instance of violence was justified. Unfortunately, I don’t know of many actual incidences of Antifa violence. I do know what the right likes to claim about Antifa, and, assuming the truth in their statements, I generally stand behind decrying the violence. It isn’t helpful if you blow up a car, beat up some protesters who weren’t doing anything, make colleges into war zones, etc. But how much this actually happens and is actually linked with Antifa, I don’t know. However, I will say that I can’t ignore one thing: Unite the Right 2. In it, the 1500 people from last year were reduced to 12 this year. And while part of this was because of speech, getting people in trouble back home as they were seen on camera, part of this was that Antifa fought back against the violent Nazis. Many Nazis mentioned this time that they were too afraid to come out because of Antifa. I’m sorry, but that’s a win. It reminds me of the Black Panthers and Malcolm X during the Civil Rights Movement. A small number of violent people clearly played a part in the revolution here. I can’t ignore that. I can’t put myself in that bubble that preaches violence is always wrong while supporting our military. I have to acknowledge that, sometimes, when the bad guys are causing harm, the violence of fighting back can be the lesser harm. But that does not mean I support any and all violence. It must be justified. And, most of the time, it is not. But I can’t ignore that it has worked repeatedly throughout history. America wouldn’t exist without it. I wish it were as simple as “violence = bad.” ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/45 "2018-08-20T18:42:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Trumpists and other right-wingers seem to think that if they can find one Hillary voter somewhere whe did something just as heinous as Trump et al do, it’s a wash — _Tu quoque_. “Trump is forced to tell 17 lies per day because a Democratic postmaster in Oshkosh told a white lie once.” > > It would all be amusing if the Hannity-Jones viewers were just a few doped senior citizens in nursing homes. But instead they’ve taken over the country. :eek: > > Careful; the right-wing word-twisters may claim you’re condoning violence on ever day except Inaug Day! I’ll exclude the entire week: > _You should not burn that car on Monday. > You must not burn that bus on Tuesday. > Not in the park. Not in the dark. > Not for a lark. Not with a spark. > Don’t burn that truck on Wednesday or Thursday. > Leave it be on Friday and Saturday. > Don’t kill that Nazi on a Sunday. > Just get high and make it a fun day. > Not with a fall. Not in a brawl. > Not in the hall. Not in the mall. > You must not burn that car at all!_ > I see **octopus** has joined us. In another thread he is convinced that most or all SDMB liberals applaud antifa violence, though he couldn’t remember the name of a single one. I hope the Dopers who support anti-Nazi violence confess to refresh his memory. But I’m not sure who you are — Most of you progressives didn’t even want to bomb Saddam Hussein. :smack: It may be due to the company I keep and the venues I frequent, but I have not been within punching distance of a Nazi for years. If I ever am again I can assure you there will be another “Florida Man” headline about some poor White Supremacist who was assaulted for no reason. You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/46 "2018-08-20T18:50:03Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I have not been within punching distance of a Nazi for years. If I ever am again I can assure you there will be another “Florida Man” headline about some poor White Supremacist who was assaulted for no reason. Careful. We have Stand Your Ground here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/47 "2018-08-20T19:01:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You could show us an example of such an apologist. You could then direct your indignation at a real person. Ahem. I presume **l0k1** is a real person, and as you will note I responded directly to this point to protest the point s/he was making. > [@l0k1](#): > > I repeatedly hear people condemning Antifa and violence that they attribute to Antifa. But Antifa is not a violent organization. The criticisms made against Antifa are like the criticisms made against Dungeon & Dragons in the 80s: a made-up moral panic. Sure, you could find some D&D players that were witches, or satanists, or even murderers, but none of those things were characteristic of most D&D players. D&D was a bunch of nerds that got together to do a nerdy thing. Antifa is also a bunch of nerds that get together to do a nerdy thing. They research hate-groups, with the goal of pointing at individual members of those groups and saying “Look everybody, that dude is a nazi.” A secondary goal is to be able to call up the exit 6 Holiday Inn, and say “Those dudes renting out the ballroom on Saturday are nazis, you should cancel their reservation.” > > Do any amount of research on Antifa, and those two things account for 90% of their actions. And it is working. Now, nazis made famous by Antifa can’t go to the gym. Nazis made famous by Antifa are telling their followers to not go to public nazi rallies, because it will ruin their lives. Antifa will tell their bosses, their deans, their moms, that they are nazis, and they will get fired, expelled, and kicked out of the house. > > And the best part is, as I was taught by Indiana Jones, James Bond, and Col. Hogan: Nazis are always acceptable targets. I have no sympathy for any nazi whose life was destroyed by Antifa. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/48 "2018-08-20T20:16:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Careful. We have Stand Your Ground here. It’s okay. I’m white. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/49 "2018-08-20T20:18:49Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > It may be due to the company I keep and the venues I frequent, but I have not been within punching distance of a Nazi for years. If I ever am again I can assure you there will be another “Florida Man” headline about some poor White Supremacist who was assaulted for no reason. > > You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach. So you’ll beat it out of them? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/50 "2018-08-20T20:33:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ahem. I presume **l0k1** is a real person, and as you will note I responded directly to this point to protest the point s/he was making. If only that actually was an apologia for violence, you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/51 "2018-08-20T20:43:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I think that Antifa is more likely to create Fascists than to battle it. People are hardwired to want to duke it out against rival gangs, so the creation and expansion of Antifa will cause the groups they attack to swell in size, as they recruit more people onto their side. And membership in these groups will drive them both towards more extreme positions, and reduced willingness to compromise, listen to outside views, or other be reasonable. > > There is no great fascist force in the US. Antifa are just morons attracting rival morons into violence. Ah. Fighting against Nazis makes more of them, so let’s not fight them. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/52 "2018-08-20T21:12:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So you’ll beat it out of them? Yes. My people were like number four on the Nazi’s to-do list and I cannot countenance anyone who willingly adopts the symbols or rhetoric of Nazism. Call me intolerant or violent if you will, but I believe that swastikas and “blood and soil” are an incitement. You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/53 "2018-08-20T21:28:03Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Yes. > > My people were like number four on the Nazi’s to-do list and I cannot countenance anyone who willingly adopts the symbols or rhetoric of Nazism. > Call me intolerant or violent if you will, but I believe that swastikas and “blood and soil” are an incitement. > > You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach. [Does that include assaulting reporters](https://www.newsweek.com/reporter-attacked-during-antifa-rally-charlottesville-f-you-snitch-ass-news-b-1070076)? > [@Newsweek](#): > > NBC News reporters covering demonstrations marking the one-year anniversary of the deadly “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, said they were attacked by protesters they identified as members of anti-fascist group Antifa. Once someone assaults the free press, they’re trying to destroy free speech, a cornerstone of a free society. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/54 "2018-08-20T21:34:31Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > [Does that include assaulting reporters](https://www.newsweek.com/reporter-attacked-during-antifa-rally-charlottesville-f-you-snitch-ass-news-b-1070076)?Once someone assaults the free press, they’re trying to destroy free speech, a cornerstone of a free society. I do not support assaulting the press, even so far as the name calling and covering of cameras which is reported. I do reserve my option to punch Nazis. You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/55 "2018-08-20T21:44:51Z")
**Big T** , I know you sometimes take alot of heat for your posts, but I hope that only makes you more thoughtful about how you respond, not fearful. You’ve made a very thoughtful response to this discussion and I think it encapsulates the feelings of many in our society today. But I would like to take to task a couple of your points. First, there are many of us who believe that violence is wrong in all situations; including the military and police. Second (and maybe more importantly to your point) there is a difference between violence and use of force. And there is a difference between individual action and state action. Violence is the **unlawful** exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force. When the military or police use force, it is because they have been legally authorized to do so. When you talk about the Black Panthers, you are mistaken that they approved of or advocated violence. What they did was make a show out of arming themselves for self defense and stating in no uncertain terms that they would not hesitate to use “whatever means necessary” to protect themselves. They did not take offensive action. As to the “win” achieved in Charlottesville. I don’t share your assessment. They managed to stop one rally. they did not change any minds, they did not prove that their point of view was more morally correct than the other. Just because you don’t see them any more, doesn’t mean they’ve gone away, and some would argue that it has just given them renewed vigor. And, finally, just because you think violence has worked in the past doesn’t mean it actually has. Violence doesn’t work against ideas. Violence only works against people. And while you may just want these people to go away, if you don’t defeat their ideas they will come back. mc ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/56 "2018-08-20T22:12:12Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I do not support assaulting the press, even so far as the name calling and covering of cameras which is reported. > > I do reserve my option to punch Nazis. “God is with us, so who can possibly stand against us?” is a sentiment not entirely reserved for the monarchist right. As someone interested in living in a society, it’s in my interest to stand against _anyone_ using force except in self-defense. It doesn’t matter what banner the violent wrap themselves in, they’re violent, so they’re my enemy. Maybe not now, but soon, and utterly implacably. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/57 "2018-08-20T22:17:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Careful. We have Stand Your Ground here. This. Why people think it’s acceptable to go hands on with people who say things they don’t like is a bit of a mystery to me, but why _anyone_ in this day and age thinks it would be [anything but utter foolishness to do so in Florida](https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/23/us/florida-stand-your-ground-fatal-shooting/index.html) is completely beyond my comprehension. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > It’s okay. I’m white. > > Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk Unless you’re also bulletproof I don’t see how this is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/58 "2018-08-20T22:34:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … I see **octopus** has joined us. In another thread he is convinced that most or all SDMB liberals applaud antifa violence, though he couldn’t remember the name of a single one. I hope the Dopers who support anti-Nazi violence confess to refresh his memory. … > [@DrFidelius](#): > > > [@octopus](#): > > > > So you’ll beat it out of them? > > Yes. … Hope fulfilled? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/59 "2018-08-20T22:45:08Z")
Just _who_ is Antifa? Yeah, I’ve seen the few folks in a large crowd of counter demonstrators that actually commit violent acts, but who knows who they _really_ are under the masks? Then the righties get all violent back and people like Heather Heyer get killed. But I can’t help recalling the words of Abbie Hoffman (remember him?) who said that he could always spot police infiltrators because _they_ were the ones always calling for violence, well that and the haircuts. Personally, I’m strongly against the use or threatened use of violence as an instrument of politics, but let’s not kid ourselves. There may be fascists who, at the moment, aren’t doing anything violent, but in their heads they’re already sticking folks into ovens. And as some point, maybe before any of us know it, the Marquis of Queensbury stuff ain’t gonna cut it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/60 "2018-08-20T22:56:36Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Yes. > > My people were like number four on the Nazi’s to-do list and I cannot countenance anyone who willingly adopts the symbols or rhetoric of Nazism. > Call me intolerant or violent if you will, but I believe that swastikas and “blood and soil” are an incitement. > > You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach. I do appreciate the honesty. I don’t think it’s a productive position to take in a functioning democracy but time will tell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902.md?page=4)