# Should Antifa violence be condemned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902 "2018-08-20T05:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/101 "2018-08-21T06:46:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So you claim. I’m not going to get pedantic. > > You either are for or against assaulting people over ideology. I think it’s a huge mistake. You want to justify extra-judicial violence? Be very careful. That’s a hard thing to restrain once people start retributions. Someone gets punched. Then someone gets stabbed. Then someone gets shot. Then the bombings start. > > The best thing to do is let the lunatic fringe stay the lunatic fringe instead of encouraging mob violence. > > Oh, and I missed your edit. But I see the veiled attacks are starting. How predictable. I didn’t "claim"that. You stated that. And how is asking you a question a “veiled attack”? Here is a non-veiled attack. I now agree with every one else on this board’s opinion of you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/102 "2018-08-21T06:48:59Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > … Here is a non-veiled attack. I now agree with every one else on this board’s opinion of you. Oh I doubt that. There’s not one unanimous opinion of **octopus** on this board. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/103 "2018-08-21T06:52:13Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I didn’t "claim"that. You stated that. > And how is asking you a question a “veiled attack”? > > Here is a non-veiled attack. I now agree with every one else on this board’s opinion of you. It’s funny how when people are called out for advocating violence for speech they resort to ad hominem attacks. Funny and predictable. This article _might_ educate people. Hopefully it’s from an ‘approved’ source and by an ‘approved’ writer. > **[The Misguided Attacks on ACLU for Defending Neo-Nazis' Free Speech Rights in...](https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on-aclu-for-defending-neo-nazis-free-speech-rights-in-charlottesville/)** > > The impulse to curtail civil liberties in the wake of terror attacks, and blame those who defend them, is always wrong and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/104 "2018-08-21T06:55:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it would be accurate to call it an ideology, not all that unlike black nationalism or Chicano nationalism. Ideologies are fairly often the basis of “political differences”. > > If you’re asking if I’m interested in defending that ideology, no, I am not. I find it, and its other ideological cousins I mentioned above, to be quite distasteful. I find it to be much much worse than distasteful. To get back to your OP; the far right has murdered hundreds, a loose collection of counter-protesters has fought against this using violence. Is that where we stand? I don’t think we have a smiley for “probably not”. I have a question for you. 5 years ago, did you ever think you would be describing a bunch of swastika carrying goons as “distasteful”. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/105 "2018-08-21T06:56:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oh I doubt that. There’s not one unanimous opinion of **octopus** on this board. You win that point. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/106 "2018-08-21T07:03:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s funny how when people are called out for advocating violence for speech they resort to ad hominem attacks. Funny and predictable. > > This article _might_ educate people. Hopefully it’s from an ‘approved’ source and by an ‘approved’ writer. > > [The Misguided Attacks on ACLU for Defending Neo-Nazis' Free Speech Rights in Charlottesville - The Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on-aclu-for-defending-neo-nazis-free-speech-rights-in-charlottesville/) I’m not sure what that article has to do with anything, I have no desire for the state to censor Nazi viewpoints. Local communities are free to counter-protest and shut down fascist speech within their own boundaries, but no, the state shouldn’t be in the business of enacting approved speech laws. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/107 "2018-08-21T07:09:18Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I’m not sure what that article has to do with anything, I have no desire for the state to censor Nazi viewpoints. Local communities are free to counter-protest and shut down fascist speech within their own boundaries, but no, the state shouldn’t be in the business of enacting approved speech laws. What does “shut down fascist speech” look like in your worldview? Is cracking them over the head with crude clubs acceptable to you? Would machine-gunning the fascists to silence them be acceptable to you? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/108 "2018-08-21T07:14:36Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I find it to be much much worse than distasteful. > > To get back to your OP; the far right has murdered hundreds, a loose collection of counter-protesters has fought against this using violence. Is that where we stand?.. As a point of clarification, the OP was not ‘mine’. And as a further point of clarification, Antifa only pretends to fight against the murder of hundreds. What they’ve actually done is cracked the skulls of some innocent bystanders that, AFAIK, have never murdered anyone. > [@steatopygia](#): > > … I have a question for you. 5 years ago, did you ever think you would be describing a bunch of swastika carrying goons as “distasteful”. I never gave it much thought, either 5 years ago, one year ago, or yesterday. Did I not use an Antifa-approved adjective? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/109 "2018-08-21T07:22:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What does “shut down fascist speech” look like in your worldview? Is cracking them over the head with crude clubs acceptable to you? Would machine-gunning the fascists to silence them be acceptable to you? That heavily depends on what the current political situation is, and what the other options are. I’d like to point out we did the machine guns thing, it was called World War 2, so clearly if there comes a point where we need to oppose an actual fascist regime I’m not taking it off the table exactly. However, at the present time I draw the line much more strictly than that. I would ideally stick to non-lethal, no-weapon violence and reserve it for situations with key figures of the movements, or situations with particular symbolic value (or in response to immediate physical danger, obviously). The purpose of violence at the current juncture is to merely deter people from advancing a particular violent, evil agenda, and killing isn’t necessary, helpful, or IMO, ethical for that at this point. I’m more of a “it’s okay to punch Richard Spencer” person than a “charge down a march with knives” person. I’m not going to advocate throwing a grenade into a KKK meeting. I also **vastly** prefer non-violent methods, and would personally have difficulty approving of most uses of violence (especially at the current juncture). I don’t take the option off the table, but I’m not champing at the bit to crack some Nazi skulls either. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/110 "2018-08-21T07:29:29Z")
I apologize for my mistake re the OP. My bad. I think we are not going to come to an agreement. I say antifa is a name given to counter-protesters. You say they are “pretenders” who just want to bust some skulls. Really? You think these groups have just formed lately to beat people up? What did they do before this? As I and others have said and cited, there are no “antifa approved” phrases. That was sad. Bigly. Let me know what the next “Fox approved” bogeyman is. And the answer to my question was "No, of course not. What kind of person in their right mind would call Nazis “distasteful”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/111 "2018-08-21T07:31:00Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > That heavily depends on what the current political situation is, and what the other options are. I’d like to point out we did the machine guns thing, it was called World War 2, so clearly if there comes a point where we need to oppose an actual fascist regime I’m not taking it off the table exactly. WWII was a bit larger of an issue that just trying to “shut down fascist speech”, agreed? > [@Jragon](#): > > However, at the present time I draw the line much more strictly than that. I would ideally stick to non-lethal, no-weapon violence and reserve it for situations with key figures of the movements, or situations with particular symbolic value (or in response to immediate physical danger, obviously). The purpose of violence at the current juncture is to merely deter people from advancing a particular violent, evil agenda, and killing isn’t necessary, helpful, or IMO, ethical for that at this point. > > I’m more of a “it’s okay to punch Richard Spencer” person than a “charge down a march with knives” person. I’m not going to advocate throwing a grenade into a KKK meeting. > > I also **vastly** prefer non-violent methods, and would personally have difficulty approving of most uses of violence (especially at the current juncture). I don’t take the option off the table, but I’m not champing at the bit to crack some Nazi skulls either. So you don’t find the Antifa tactic of using clubs / improvised explosive devices on random crowd members to be acceptable? Would you be prepared to go so far as to say you “condemn” it? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/112 "2018-08-21T07:32:01Z")
Okay now you’re being silly steat. Let’s not police exactly how scathing of an insult you must use for Nazism. I have a tendency to not use strong words a lot of the time and I’m sure if you looked hard enough you could find instances of me merely condemning it as “bad” or “wrong” or “distasteful”. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So you don’t find the Antifa tactic of using clubs / improvised explosive devices on random crowd members to be acceptable? Would you be prepared to go so far as to say you “condemn” it? I literally said I condemn bike lock dude. People shouldn’t be attacking “random crowd members”, but that’s not exactly an “antifa tactic”. Nobody went to a planning meeting and said “yo we should just fuck some rando up”, but if they planned that, yes, it’s stupid and I condemn it. Things like Charlottesville are a bit different where both sides got crazy because of a huge police fuckup. I could **maybe** justify starting violence there anyway considering they were literally yelling “Gas the kikes! Race war now!”, but that’s not what happened and I’m not sure. > [@](#): > > WWII was a bit larger of an issue that just trying to “shut down fascist speech”, agreed? It’s on the same gradient, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/113 "2018-08-21T07:41:21Z")
Again, it’s a matter of “I’m not going to say I condemn Antifascist violence, but if you give me a specific incident, I may or may not be for it.” ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/114 "2018-08-21T07:41:29Z")
Jragon, my reply was to HD, who did indeed describe white supremacy as “distasteful”. I messed up the quote function. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/115 "2018-08-21T07:41:43Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > … I think we are not going to come to an agreement. … I also think that’s likely the case. > [@steatopygia](#): > > I say antifa is a name given to counter-protesters. > You say they are “pretenders” who just want to bust some skulls. > Really? You think these groups have just formed lately to beat people up? … Yes. And it wasn’t a name “given to” them. It was one they picked for themselves. In one of the rare cases of agreement between Nancy Pelosi and myself, I’d like to whole-heartedly endorse this sentiment expressed by her almost a year ago: > [@](#): > > [The violent actions of people calling themselves antifa in Berkeley this weekend deserve unequivocal condemnation, and the perpetrators should be arrested and prosecuted.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/30/pelosi-condemns-violent-actions-of-antifa-protesters) ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/116 "2018-08-21T07:45:40Z")
Yeah, in this context, I’m OK with policing it. It came about because he was defending white supremacy as a “political difference”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/117 "2018-08-21T07:52:51Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Okay now you’re being silly steat. Let’s not police exactly how scathing of an insult you must use for Nazism. I have a tendency to not use strong words a lot of the time and I’m sure if you looked hard enough you could find instances of me merely condemning it as “bad” or “wrong” or “distasteful”. Thank you for this paragraph. Sincerely. > [@Jragon](#): > > I literally said I condemn bike lock dude. Yes, you did. Bravo! On this point, we agree. > [@Jragon](#): > > People shouldn’t be attacking “random crowd members”, but that’s not exactly an “antifa tactic”. Disagree. It is _exactly_ an “Antifa tactic”. As Exhibit A I provide the case of Eric Clanton attacking Sean Stiles. Exhibit B is the antifa thugs attacking Paul Welch. > [@Jragon](#): > > … Nobody went to a planning meeting and said “yo we should just fuck some rando up”, but if they planned that, yes, it’s stupid and I condemn it. … I don’t know what they said to each other beforehand, I only know what they did, in actuality, do, and “fuck some rando up” is about as perfect a characterization of it as I can conceive. > [@Jragon](#): > > … It’s on the same gradient, IMO. You think chanting mean things and / or prancing around with tiki torches is “on the same gradient” as invading Poland? That’s … amazing. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/118 "2018-08-21T07:54:07Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Yeah, in this context, I’m OK with policing it. It came about because he was defending white supremacy as a “political difference”. I’d rate my interest in adhering to your speech codes as “quite low”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/119 "2018-08-21T12:09:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I knew you would have to retract your argument that I was arguing against an imaginary person That’s true. You were indeed not arguing against an imaginary person. No, you were arguing against an imaginary _statement_. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902/120 "2018-08-21T12:19:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Personally I think communism is more of a danger than fascism only because communism at least has a superficially appealing message. And in power communists do a fair amount of carnage. In the context of the US, this is totally nuts. White supremacists have overwhelmingly been the most harmful force in American history. They are literally responsible for millions of enslavements, rapes, kidnappings, and worse. Even including a dumb war-of-choice in a far off country, the communist body-count for the US is orders of magnitude smaller. In comparison, antifa has killed no one and harmed a very few. Initiating violence is bad, I condemn it, and white supremacists are far, far more violent than antifa, and far, far more dangerous to the country as a whole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-antifa-violence-be-condemned/819902.md?page=7)