# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/181 "2016-02-18T01:06:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Government is the institution to worry about. Feel free to try life in Somalia if you believe government is bad. > [@](#): > > You believe police are your friend? You going to refuse counsel if you are ever arrested or detained? You believe police are your enemy? You going to then them away if someone breaks into your house, steals your car, or assaults you or your family? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/182 "2016-02-18T01:11:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Feel free to try life in Somalia if you believe government is bad. > > You believe police are your enemy? You going to then them away if someone breaks into your house, steals your car, or assaults you or your family? Lol. The Somalia card! It’s not a binary issue, Smapti. The police are definitely not your friends. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/183 "2016-02-18T01:13:21Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Government is the institution to worry about. Just like you used the word corporations. > > I don’t trust anyone to all my information. As an aside, I learned from a colleague that distrust of government in privacy issues is more pronounced in the USA. In Europe, generally, they are more trusting of government with private information and less trusting of corporations with private information. For example in the UK, I believe the government has cameras in public spaces far more than we find in the USA. While in the USA, they relied on private cameras when identifying the Boston Marathon bombers. (Lord and Taylor security cameras). I wonder if the Apple versus Government opinions have regional bias. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/184 "2016-02-18T01:16:07Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > As an aside, I learned from a colleague that distrust of government in privacy issues is more pronounced in the USA. In Europe, generally, they are more trusting of government with private information and less trusting of corporations with private information. > For example in the UK, I believe the government has cameras in public spaces far more than we find in the USA. While in the USA, they relied on private cameras when identifying the Boston Marathon bombers. (Lord and Taylor security cameras). > > I wonder if the Apple versus Government opinions have regional bias. The US used to be concerned with separation of powers. That concept seems to be eroding for short term entitlements and forceful activism on pet issues. However once the ruling classes have that power good luck clawing it back. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/185 "2016-02-18T01:16:13Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > To be fair, how do you know that? Just because Tim Cook says they don’t? Do you have evidence to the contrary? I have a history on this board of changing my stance when presented with evidence, so feel free to show me your evidence that what Tim Cook said is untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/186 "2016-02-18T01:16:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The police are definitely not your friends. So I suppose that when your house gets broken into, you’ll call Apple for help? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/187 "2016-02-18T01:20:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They have your name and address. They have that because I voluntarily gave it to them. > [@Smapti](#): > > They have your billing information. Again, I voluntarily gave them my address and a credit card number. [/quote] Chances are they have your SSN and access to your credit record. [/quote] No, they don’t have my SS#; I didn’t give it to them. Do you have a cite for them having my SS#? > [@Smapti](#): > > They know where you are at any given moment of the day. No, Apple does not track my movements. They don’t have access to my phone. > [@Smapti](#): > > They have records of every phone call and text message you send or receive. No, Apple does not have records of every phone call and text message I send and receive. Do you have a cite for your assertion? > [@Smapti](#): > > They probably know _more_ about you than the government does. > > Are you OK with that? No, they know very little about me and yes, I’m okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Grsz11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grsz11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grsz11)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/188 "2016-02-18T01:22:34Z")
This is nothing more than Apple protecting its brand. Nevermind that the iSheep already sign over all their data on virtually every app they use. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/189 "2016-02-18T01:24:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, they don’t have my SS#; I didn’t give it to them. Do you have a cite for them having my SS#? How did you buy one without submitting to a credit check? > [@](#): > > No, Apple does not track my movements. They don’t have access to my phone. How do you think they know which tower to route your call to? How do you think Enhanced 911 knows where you’re calling from? > [@](#): > > No, Apple does not have records of every phone call and text message I send and receive. Do you have a cite for your assertion? When you restore or upgrade your phone, and all your call records and text records are suddenly on the new device, where do you think that data came from? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/190 "2016-02-18T01:25:13Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > To be fair, how do you know that? Just because Tim Cook says they don’t? And what are the limits of personal information? Apple certainly could know where I go, who I call, who my contacts are, what I take pictures of, etc. Let’s be clear here: you’re suggesting that Tim Cook publicly lied about the amount of information Apple keeps and has access to, risking the well-being of the second wealthiest company on the planet and his own personal reputation, not to mention that he is lying to the federal government? That’s what you’re suggesting? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/191 "2016-02-18T01:26:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How do you think they know which tower to route your call to? Apple has no idea what tower to route my call to. Why do you think they need to know that? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/192 "2016-02-18T01:27:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So I suppose that when your house gets broken into, you’ll call Apple for help? Are you serious? I get that you choose to ignore past and present for political purposes. But that’s a silly question. But to answer it I’d rather trust a corporation like Smith and Wesson for home security. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/193 "2016-02-18T01:30:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What if making the key requires entering a code into the key making machine? Again, it doesn’t really matter because they can subpoena the code and seize the machine. The feds are being nice to Apple by giving them the chance to cooperate. If Apple wants to wait while the government gets a bigger boat that’s their problem. I am talking about the law. The law does not permit the courts to require Apple to make a new key, but it does permit the courts to seize the code. If the government demand is for the code, Apple must comply (or raise some other defense). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/194 "2016-02-18T01:31:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let’s be clear here: you’re suggesting that Tim Cook publicly lied about the amount of information Apple keeps and has access to, risking the well-being of the second wealthiest company on the planet and his own personal reputation, not to mention that he is lying to the federal government? That’s what you’re suggesting? [Wouldn’t be the first time Apple lied about data collection.](http://thehill.com/policy/technology/194206-apple-denies-working-with-nsa) > [@octopus](#): > > But to answer it I’d rather trust a corporation like Smith and Wesson for home security. So you’ll call Smith & Wesson when your child doesn’t come home from school one day, then. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/195 "2016-02-18T01:34:42Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > That about seems incorrect to me. The proper analogue would be requiring a safe maker to disable the bomb inside the safe that explodes when the lock is tampered with. Apple is essentially being asked to disable a self-destruct mechanism, not to open the phone. I think comparing it to a key is wrong because it implies that they are granting access to an object when they aren’t in actuality doing that. Ok, I’ll go along with that. Same answer, though: the government can’t use a subpoena duces tecum to make a safe maker disable a bomb inside the safe. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/196 "2016-02-18T01:42:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [Wouldn’t be the first time Apple lied about data collection.](http://thehill.com/policy/technology/194206-apple-denies-working-with-nsa) Your cite doesn’t say what you think it says. Please quote what you think the relevant part is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/197 "2016-02-18T01:44:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why does that make that make it an undue burden? Because it is outside the reach of Rule 45. FRCP 34(c): As provided in Rule 45, a nonparty may be compelled to produce documents and tangible things or to permit an inspection. > [@](#): > > Apple isn’t required to disclose their method. Sure they are. The order itself exposes the method. If they comply, they demonstrate that the method works. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/198 "2016-02-18T01:45:37Z")
Doesn’t the FBI have enough evidence already to get them a death sentence or two? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/199 "2016-02-18T01:48:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How did you buy one without submitting to a credit check? I paid cash. > [@Smapti](#): > > How do you think they know which tower to route your call to? How do you think Enhanced 911 knows where you’re calling from? Again, Apple does not know which tower to route my call to. Are you aware that Apple is not a telephone service provider?😕 > [@Smapti](#): > > When you restore or upgrade your phone, and all your call records and text records are suddenly on the new device, where do you think that data came from? Again: are you aware that Apple is not a telephone service provider? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/200 "2016-02-18T01:53:09Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Doesn’t the FBI have enough evidence already to get them a death sentence or two? \*\*That \*\*they already got. Now the feds want his call list and other information that may or may not be on his phone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=11)