# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/501 "2016-02-29T19:09:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ll challenge you on this point. Exactly what control does Apple exercise over an iPhone once it is sold to a customer? > [@treis](#): > > Apple retains a great deal of control over the iPhone. It (mostly) restricts software instillation to the App store. It exerts control over what type of apps can go into that store. It forces apps to use only Apple approved APIs and services, for example payments must go through Apple. I could go on, but it’s clear that Apple retains a significant level of control over the iPhone. > [@treis](#): > > It’s under their control because it’s protected by things that only they can disable. I mean, this is kind of a ipso facto thing here. If Apple, and Apple alone, has the ability to access this data how can it not be considered under their control? > [@SteveMB](#): > > Because now the phones have better security that is impervious to the haquer-d00d-level tools that unlocked the older versions. This question is equivalent to the suggestion that somebody who occasionally helps out a down-on-his-luck friend is somehow being hypocritical if he balks at letting the friend move in rent-free. There’s two things here Apple is claiming is now an undue burden. You address the first one, actually creating the tool. The second one is that Apple would incur an undue burden by having to testify in cases when they unlock a phone. The part you quoted addressed the second burden. > [@SteveMB](#): > > It’s clear from the context (and from your very own comment quoted above) that the analogy is to a pharmaceutical company that formerly provided execution drugs but has ceased to do so. Such a company can hardly be said to have “no relation” to any execution(s) put on hold by its refusal. Where in the quote or context are you reading that they’re talking about a company that used to supply drugs? Either way, it doesn’t matter. Simply because a company was involved in past orders or cases doesn’t connect them to future ones. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/502 "2016-02-29T19:17:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The second one is that Apple would incur an undue burden by having to testify in cases when they unlock a phone. Every piece of software I ever purchased came with a long, legalese-laden “Terms and Conditions” basically stating they were responsible for nothing arising from the use of their software. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/503 "2016-02-29T19:52:15Z")
How many iPhones have been bricked for trying to jailbreak or tinker with it in some way that Apple does not approve of? How many Cadillacs have been rendered permanently inoperable because the owner modified the engine? The comparison between cars and an iPhone is a terrible one that doesn’t survive the first moment of examination. Had Apple claimed that they exercise the same amount of control over an iPhone as, say, HP does over a PC, I’m not sure I could argue with that. But compared to a car? Get real. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/504 "2016-02-29T20:56:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Apple tried and failed to have jailbreaking treated as a crime under US law. That they failed to escalate to robbery to enforce their will does not mean they do not forbid it to the best of their ability. > [“In 2010, in response to a request by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the U.S. Copyright Office explicitly recognized an exemption to the DMCA to permit **jailbreaking in order to allow iPhone owners to use their phones with applications that are not available from Apple’s store** , and to unlock their iPhones for use with unapproved carriers.”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Digital_Millenium_Copyright_Act_exemptions) So to support your contention that Apple controls what people can download, you cite that the federal government explicitly recognized that people can do what they want with their iPhones, including jailbreaking them so they can use apps not approved by Apple? 😕 It sure seems as if people are free to do what they wish with their iPhone, including load it with content they get someplace other than Apple. Knowing that, it seems as if refusing to jailbreak an iPhone is a choice, not something people cannot do. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/505 "2016-02-29T21:07:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How many iPhones have been bricked for trying to jailbreak or tinker with it in some way that Apple does not approve of? > > How many Cadillacs have been rendered permanently inoperable because the owner modified the engine? > > The comparison between cars and an iPhone is a terrible one that doesn’t survive the first moment of examination. Had Apple claimed that they exercise the same amount of control over an iPhone as, say, HP does over a PC, I’m not sure I could argue with that. But compared to a car? Get real. I’m going to guess “no iPhones have been bricked solely from jailbreaking them”. [Cite. > [@](#): > > Can I “Brick” my device by Jailbreaking? > > The short answer is, no. While it is theoretically possible to brick your device by flashing an invalid baseband bootloader or purposefully erasing your NOR, those are extremely advanced actions that will not be undertaken by the vast majority of users, especially by accident. It is IMPOSSIBLE to brick your device simply by jailbreaking it, since DFU mode and recovery mode will always be available to recover from a bad flash or a serious iOS error. ]([Is it easy to brick your iPhone if you try to jailbreak it? | iMore](http://forums.imore.com/jailbreaking-unlocking-hacks-themes-mods/254017-easy-brick-your-iphone-if-you-try-jailbreak.html))[Cite > [@](#): > > Using a jailbreaking tool cannot put a device into an unusable state on its own - if something goes wrong while jailbreaking, putting the device into DFU Mode will allow you to restore it via iTunes. Installing software via Cydia also cannot cause an unrecoverable state (unless very specifically designed to do so by a malicious person, which has not been seen “in the wild”). Other than that specific exception, if something goes wrong, DFU mode will still work. ]([Brick - The iPhone Wiki](https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Brick))[Cite > [@](#): > > Imagine my surprise when I looked for information about the risks and came across a legitimately regarded site that tells me I could brick my device if I jailbreak it. Bricking means the device is beyond repair and will never be able to function at any level again. Ignoring the hype I went to JailbreakMe and performed the hack in minutes without issue. > > I don’t know one person who has legitimately bricked their iPhone or any other iDevice for that matter. Not one. Surely if a simple jailbreak was capable of doing this I would have heard of at least one example of it happening. ]([Why Do People Think Jailbreaking Can Brick Your iPhone? [Rant]](http://www.idownloadblog.com/2010/09/03/why-do-people-think-jailbreaking-can-brick-your-iphone-rant/))No cars are rendered permanently inoperable due to modifying the engine. Oh sure, you might have to replace the engine (and some other parts) but the car is still a car and you can replace parts until they all work again. Some people might have noticed that there is a sizable industry in America devoted solely to rebuilding old vehicles, for instance. Apple has many reasons for wanting people to only use the app store, chief among them the 30% cut they take from revenue generated there by 3rd party apps. But no one is forced to rely on them; people make the choice to do so or to jailbreak their device and go elsewhere for apps. Similarly, no one is forced to use only the engine that came with their car. People are free to replace it with some other engine. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/506 "2016-02-29T21:11:36Z")
Has GM done something like this, then? > [@](#): > > Thousands of iPhone 6 users claim they have been left holding almost worthless phones because Apple’s latest operating system permanently disables the handset if it detects that a repair has been carried out by a non-Apple technician. > **[‘Error 53’ fury mounts as Apple software update threatens to kill your iPhone 6](https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/05/error-53-apple-iphone-software-update-handset-worthless-third-party-repair)** > > It’s the message that spells doom and will render your handset worthless if it’s been repaired by a third party. But there’s no warning and no fix “Hey, you took your Jeep to a non-Jeep dealership! We’re going to make it unusable for you!” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/507 "2016-02-29T21:18:38Z")
How many of iPhone users were forced to install Apple’s latest operating system? I’ll answer that for you: zero. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/508 "2016-02-29T21:30:25Z")
Somebody who buys a new iPhone has a choice of what OS they want to put on it? Is that what you’re trying to say? Your extraordinary efforts to deny straightforward facts is probably the best proof that Apple is full of crap when it says it has no more control of its products after being purchased than a car maker does after a vehicle has been purchased. Fact: Apple has tried in numerous ways, some of which have been rejected under the law, to exercise a pretty substantial amount of control over iPhones that have been purchased. For various reasons, Apple has been plenty happy to have phones bricked because the user wanted to do something that Apple didn’t want them to do. Fact: the typical car maker doesn’t care at all what you do to a car that you buy from them, except that certain actions may void warranties. No car maker attempts to brick your car because you changed the stereo or the transmission. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/509 "2016-02-29T22:01:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Somebody who buys a new iPhone has a choice of what OS they want to put on it? Is that what you’re trying to say? I thought we were talking about updating the iOS; that’s what your link talks about: > [@](#): > > But the problem only comes to light when the latest version of Apple’s iPhone software, iOS 9, is installed. Indeed, the phone may have been working perfectly for weeks or months since a repair or being damaged. > > After installation a growing number of people have watched in horror as their phone, which may well have cost them £500-plus, is rendered useless. Any photos or other data held on the handset is lost – and irretrievable. > > Tech experts claim Apple knows all about the problem but has done nothing to warn users that their phone will be “bricked” (ie, rendered as technologically useful as a brick) if they install the iOS upgrade. If you want to talk about people who purchase a new iPhone with that OS on it, then a) they know what the iOS is when they buy it and b)they are free to jailbreak it and thus not use the iOS that comes with the iPhone. Do you disagree? Another analogy: when I bought my Scion xB, I had no choice in the type of engine that came with the car; do you think Toyota was exercising control over the car after I purchased it? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Your extraordinary efforts to deny straightforward facts is probably the best proof that Apple is full of crap when it says it has no more control of its products after being purchased than a car maker does after a vehicle has been purchased. > > Fact: Apple has tried in numerous ways, some of which have been rejected under the law, to exercise a pretty substantial amount of control over iPhones that have been purchased. So you agree that Apple does not have control over people’s iPhones once they are purchased? > [@Ravenman](#): > > For various reasons, Apple has been plenty happy to have phones bricked because the user wanted to do something that Apple didn’t want them to do. If I made a car and sold it to you and you tried to replace the engine with a lawnmower engine and the car didn’t work properly afterwards, which of us caused the problem? And why shouldn’t I happily sell you another car at that point? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Fact: the typical car maker doesn’t care at all what you do to a car that you buy from them, except that certain actions may void warranties. No car maker attempts to brick your car because you changed the stereo or the transmission. Installing a manual transmission from a 1972 Volkswagen Beetle into a 2015 Peterbilt 579 will certainly not work, effectively “bricking” the truck until proper repairs can be done. Would you like other examples of aftermarket vehicle work that will render a vehicle inoperable? I have provided cites that the mere act of jailbreaking will not in and of itself “brick” an iPhone. **Grumman** helpfully provided a cite showing that jailbreaking is permitted under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/510 "2016-02-29T22:19:28Z")
A judge in NY today denied an FBI application under the All Writs Act to unlock a phone. > **[Orenstein-Order-Apple-iPhone-02292016.pdf](https://archive.epic.org/amicus/crypto/apple/Orenstein-Order-Apple-iPhone-02292016.pdf)** > > 363.91 KB ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/511 "2016-02-29T23:16:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A judge in NY today denied an FBI application under the All Writs Act to unlock a phone. > > [https://epic.org/amicus/crypto/apple/Orenstein-Order-Apple-iPhone-02292016.pdf](https://epic.org/amicus/crypto/apple/Orenstein-Order-Apple-iPhone-02292016.pdf) An excellent decision, IMO. Apple properly argued that CALEA (brought up in [Post #464](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19129109&postcount=464)) exempts Apple because Apple is not a telecommunications carrier. And then Judge Orenstein laid waste to the government’s contention that the AWA applied, using a form of “absurd” many time over to describe their arguments. Nice! ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/512 "2016-03-01T01:04:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Has GM done something like this, then? > > [‘Error 53’ fury mounts as Apple software update threatens to kill your iPhone 6 | Mobile phones | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/feb/05/error-53-apple-iphone-software-update-handset-worthless-third-party-repair) > > “Hey, you took your Jeep to a non-Jeep dealership! We’re going to make it unusable for you!” I think that would run afoul of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in some way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/513 "2016-03-01T01:13:45Z")
quotes screwed up, try again later ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/514 "2016-03-01T01:21:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let’s say you bought a car with those “control chips” in it. Once you have possession of the car, how is GM exercising control over it? > > I’ll save you time and provide the answer: they are not exercising any control over it. Yes, just as Apple is not exercising any control over the end user’s iPhone. Glad we agree. > [@Grumman](#): > > Apple tried and failed to have jailbreaking treated as a crime under US law. That they failed to escalate to robbery to enforce their will does not mean they do not forbid it to the best of their ability. Yes, just as Canute kept the tides off his shores to the best of his ability. Another confirmation of Apple’s non-control. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/515 "2016-03-01T01:27:30Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Yes, just as Apple is not exercising any control over the end user’s iPhone. Glad we agree. > > Yes, just as Canute kept the tides off his shores to the best of his ability. Another confirmation of Apple’s non-control. Me too. 😃 I apologize for the confrontational tone of the post you quoted; I was still upset by that whole Smiths video thing. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/516 "2016-03-01T02:14:36Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Yes, just as Apple is not exercising any control over the end user’s iPhone. Glad we agree. Say you buy an iPhone and on your way home from the store Apple goes _poof_ as a company. That means you (essentially) can’t install apps, use it as a payment device, or make certain repairs. Of course that doesn’t stop you entirely from using the phone, but it certainly removes important functionality. So even if you don’t want to call that control, it’s certainly a different relationship than Toyota selling a car. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/517 "2016-03-01T02:32:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Say you buy an iPhone and on your way home from the store Apple goes _poof_ as a company. That means you (essentially) can’t install apps, use it as a payment device, or make certain repairs. Of course that doesn’t stop you entirely from using the phone, but it certainly removes important functionality. So even if you don’t want to call that control, it’s certainly a different relationship than Toyota selling a car. Ignoring the errors in what a person could or could not do with an iPhone if Apple went _poof_ one night, it seems that you agree that Apple does not exercise control over a purchased iPhone. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/518 "2016-03-01T02:44:45Z")
I’ll just forget trying to multi quote on this thing here… So, **Bo,** true or false: Apple can automatically disable the OS on a iPhone if you violate the EULA, such as by renting the device. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/519 "2016-03-01T03:02:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ignoring the errors in what a person could or could not do with an iPhone if Apple went _poof_ one night, it seems that you agree that Apple does not exercise control over a purchased iPhone. Oh yes of course because I’ve not repeatedly claimed otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/520 "2016-03-01T03:26:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Oh yes of course because I’ve not repeatedly claimed otherwise. Sorry; it sure seemed from all the posts you’ve made about how Apple exerts control over people’s iPhones that you were arguing that Apple exerted control over people’s iPhones (like the point I challenged you on and in most of your self-quotes in Post #501). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=27)