# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/541 "2016-03-12T14:28:40Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > You can’t force people to work. Court order or no. Sure you can, depending on the circumstance. My city requires me to shovel my sidewalk after a snowstorm. No court order needed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/542 "2016-03-12T16:28:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Sure you can, depending on the circumstance. My city requires me to shovel my sidewalk after a snowstorm. No court order needed. Depending on state laws you might be fined but they can’t force you you to shovel it. If you employ someone to shovel it and they decline the state has no leverage against them. If you bring legal action against a company you are not suing the employees because they are not the company. They work for the company. So I will ask you again, if an employee says no, how will that be enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/543 "2016-03-12T17:11:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Depending on state laws you might be fined but they can’t force you you to shovel it. If you employ someone to shovel it and they decline the state has no leverage against them. > > If you bring legal action against a company you are not suing the employees because they are not the company. They work for the company. > > So I will ask you again, if an employee says no, how will that be enforced? The company can fire them for refusing. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/544 "2016-03-12T17:19:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Depending on state laws you might be fined but they can’t force you you to shovel it. If you employ someone to shovel it and they decline the state has no leverage against them. > > If you bring legal action against a company you are not suing the employees because they are not the company. They work for the company. > > So I will ask you again, if an employee says no, how will that be enforced? See above. If Apple and its employees declare themselves sovereign citizens, the law can’t touch them. This is a brilliant legal strategy that I’m sure will not result in anyone ending up on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/545 "2016-03-12T17:26:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The company can fire them for refusing. And? Currently the company isn’t in love with the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/546 "2016-03-12T19:05:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The company can fire them for refusing. But the company doesn’t have to fire them. So how is the government going to enforce this? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/547 "2016-03-12T19:46:38Z")
Can you seriously not think of any method for courts to compel compliance with an order? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/548 "2016-03-12T20:04:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can you seriously not think of any method for courts to compel compliance with an order? Can your city compel someone working for you to shovel your walk? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/549 "2016-03-12T20:17:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Can your city compel someone working for you to shovel your walk? They can punish me if I don’t get the job done, which is the dictionary definition of “compel.” Governments can compel a whole lot of things, depending on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/550 "2016-03-12T22:13:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > They can punish me if I don’t get the job done, which is the dictionary definition of “compel.” Governments can compel a whole lot of things, depending on the circumstances. Great. We already discussed this. you might be punished but they can’t force your employee to shovel it. So I will ask you once again, if an employee says no, how will that be enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/551 "2016-03-12T22:14:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So I will ask you once again, if an employee says no, how will that be enforced? You find an employee that’ll say yes. And fast, if you know what’s good for ya. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/552 "2016-03-12T22:41:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Great. We already discussed this. > > you might be punished but they can’t force your employee to shovel it. > > So I will ask you once again, if an employee says no, how will that be enforced? Let me investigate your thinking here. Let’s say GM owned my house instead of me. GM would be responsible for shoveling the walk. That doesn’t happen one day, so the Department of Public Works pays a housecall. If GM said, “Yes, the walk isn’t shoveled. Hector refuses to do it.” Are you implying that the government would be without recourse, just because Hector is lazy? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/553 "2016-03-12T22:47:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You find an employee that’ll say yes. And fast, if you know what’s good for ya. uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/554 "2016-03-12T22:50:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me investigate your thinking here. Let’s say GM owned my house instead of me. GM would be responsible for shoveling the walk. That doesn’t happen one day, so the Department of Public Works pays a housecall. If GM said, “Yes, the walk isn’t shoveled. Hector refuses to do it.” > > Are you implying that the government would be without recourse, just because Hector is lazy? I’m saying they can’t compel you to shovel the walk. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/555 "2016-03-12T22:51:20Z")
They can fine me if the walk isn’t shoveled. That’s called being compelled. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/556 "2016-03-12T23:58:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > They can fine me if the walk isn’t shoveled. That’s called being compelled. If you’re the owner of the house, not if you are the employee of the owner. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/557 "2016-03-13T00:10:50Z")
A distinction that has literally no relevance to the topic of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/558 "2016-03-13T00:17:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A distinction that has literally no relevance to the topic of this thread. It has all the relevance to the topic of the thread. You continue to duck the question, how can the government compel an Apple employee to write code for them? They are not the company. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/559 "2016-03-13T00:22:59Z")
A judge can compel Apple to do whatever the law allows the government to do. Some employee refusing to work has no bearing on a legal order demanding that Apple do something. Face it, you’re raising a dumb nitpick that has no consequence to this case. Apple isn’t a Freeman on the land, and if an appeals court find the writ to be legal, Apple has to do what it was ordered to do, no matter what some random employee does, or Apple will face consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/560 "2016-03-13T01:16:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A judge can compel Apple to do whatever the law allows the government to do. Some employee refusing to work has no bearing on a legal order demanding that Apple do something. > > Face it, you’re raising a dumb nitpick that has no consequence to this case. Apple isn’t a Freeman on the land, and if an appeals court find the writ to be legal, Apple has to do what it was ordered to do, no matter what some random employee does, or Apple will face consequences. yes a judge might be able to compel Apple to do something. They cannot compel their workers. What part of this don’t you understand? CEO: “We asked our workers and they said no”. “Sorry, we tried”. Cite any case regarding employee liability in such a circumstance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=29)