# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/41 "2016-02-17T16:32:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This isn’t what Tim Cook said, that the new software would be baked in to all future iPhones. He said developing the new software is a risk. I’m not clear if he thinks the software will end up being released publicly, or if he is worried his software engineers are going to tell others how to make the software they build pursuant to this order. > > But it’s pretty clear that the intent of the court order is to only apply the software to this one particular phone. New York State is proposing legislation that would require Apple (and Android) be able to hack into a locked phone. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/42 "2016-02-17T16:32:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If the order is legal and valid Apple must cooperate. No corporate secret is that important. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It isn’t a corporate secret that Apple is trying to protect; it’s your secrets (and mine and everyone else’s). Exactly. Millions of people put their personal information on their iPhones, including information that can used for identity theft as well as financial and medical information. The only reason I feel safe doing this personally is because iPhones are encrypted and locked down. The act of creating a security backdoor for an iPhone would cripple the product. After all, if a backdoor exists, hackers will exploit it. I strongly feel that Apple should do everything legally in its power to resist complying with this short-sighted, idiotic order. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/43 "2016-02-17T16:33:23Z")
Maybe we’ll get one of the first Thirteenth Amendment cases in a long time. How can the Court force them to code software to help the police? Why isn’t that involuntary servitude? ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/44 "2016-02-17T16:33:33Z")
I think that there are some assumptions built into our legal system around the idea that we have to tolerate some “allowing criminals to go free” to provide the privacy and freedom and protection from the government that we all want. If the only place on earth that the evidence the FBI seeks resides is on that phone, then I’m perfectly willing to accept that the FBI will have to do without that evidence. I am a software developer, but not an OS developer. In my slightly informed opinion, what the court order calls for can’t be done. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/45 "2016-02-17T16:37:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Your secrets are not immune from a federal search warrant. Yes, but my secrets and personal information are not the subject of this court order or the federal search warrant in question! Yet the security of my information will be jeopardized if Apple is forced to create a backdoor for their operating system. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/46 "2016-02-17T16:38:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > And as far as I know, you can’t force someone to invent something that doesn’t currently exist. It’s not as if the court has asked Apple to build a perpetual motion machine. They’re asking them to write an app. There’s nothing novel or impossible about the proposed app, and the order gives Apple leeway to suggest another means of accomplishing what the FBI is asking them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/47 "2016-02-17T16:38:59Z")
Can the court order a restaurant to make the detectives some lunch, too? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/48 "2016-02-17T16:39:08Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Yes, but my secrets and personal information are not the subject of this court order or the federal search warrant in question! Yet the security of my information will be jeopardized if Apple is forced to create a backdoor for their operating system. The ability of the FBI to access Syed Farook’s phone does not jeopardize any of your secrets unless the FBI is who you’re trying to keep secrets from. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/49 "2016-02-17T16:41:23Z")
[We had a thread about a year and a half ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=735633)talking about this potential risk. Now it’s come to fruition as I think it was obvious it would. Here is what I said then: > [@Is the FBI right in decrying the stronger encryption about to come to smartphones?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/135): > > Currently there is no law or ruling that compels providers of electronics to oblige law enforcement. I would be opposed to any such requirement. The government can not be trusted not to abuse such ability. > > Even if there were such a law, there would exist encryption that would be able to thwart it - and then we’re in the same situation. > [@Smapti](#): > > The ability of the FBI to access Syed Farook’s phone does not jeopardize any of your secrets unless the FBI is who you’re trying to keep secrets from. I am trying to keep secrets from the FBI. Why? Because fuck them. And the FBI is included in the “everybody” that I am also keeping secrets from. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/50 "2016-02-17T16:44:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s say Verizon rolls out a 5G network in the near future, using entirely new hardware and software. The FBI wants to tap a gangster’s new cell phone, and a warrant is issued. Do you suppose that Verizon can argue that it values customer privacy, and that since it would have to create a new tool to tap the gangster’s phone, that Verizon should no longer be compelled to provide technical assistance to wiretaps? I don’t see why they can’t argue that. Why should anyone be required to provide assistance to any law enforcement agency? Suppose the FBI needs help digging up a body, can they force people to do the work for them? I get that if they’re investigating they can require people or entities to refrain from holding information secret. But how does that get entended to forcing a corporation - which had no involvement in any crime - to create a new operating system (or write code)? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/51 "2016-02-17T16:48:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Can the court order a restaurant to make the detectives some lunch, too? More like, invent a new sandwich that is both tasty and has less than 10 calories. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/52 "2016-02-17T16:52:22Z")
If the issue was, say, a master password, then I think it’s very clear that the government can require Apple to divulge it. But it’s not. Here, the government is relying on the All Writs Act to claim authority for a court to order Apple to write a new version of iOS that breaks the brute-force protection. I don’t agree that this order is properly within the ambit of any common-law writ. A writ of subpoena duces tecum is clearly available, but it can require production of existing information. I am not aware of a single example in which that, or any, writ can order a non-party to exercise creative thought to develop an application, as is ordered here. For those who disagree, can you tell me specifically how you believe the court has the power to effect this specific order? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/53 "2016-02-17T16:54:29Z")
Radio and television use the public airwaves, and therefore the FCC can require manufacturers to anything the FCC believes is necessary. Does this not hold true for cell phones as well? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/54 "2016-02-17T17:02:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Your secrets are not immune from a federal search warrant. Did someone advance that argument? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/55 "2016-02-17T17:04:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So, essentially, market the iPhone to terrorists. The risk from terrorists is infinitesimal compared to the problems with the government having unfettered access to everything you do. Have you never read _1984_? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/56 "2016-02-17T17:15:10Z")
“Well, we asked our best and brightest to give it a go, but they’re stumped, sorry.” ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/57 "2016-02-17T17:18:42Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Yes, but my secrets and personal information are not the subject of this court order or the federal search warrant in question! Yet the security of my information will be jeopardized if Apple is forced to create a backdoor for their operating system. > [@Smapti](#): > > The ability of the FBI to access Syed Farook’s phone does not jeopardize any of your secrets unless the FBI is who you’re trying to keep secrets from. The FBI is trying to force Apple to write a new version of their iOS with a security backdoor built in. Can you not see that if such an operating system is created, then hackers can then use and exploit this new OS to hack into people’s iPhones? (And arguing that this new OS would be restricted to Syed Farook’s phone is a bunch of BS. It’s like opening Pandora’s box. Once such an OS is created, it will get out.) ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/58 "2016-02-17T17:23:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So, essentially, market the iPhone to terrorists. You mean corporate IT departments? When the iPhone and Android devices came out, my IT department would’t support them because they weren’t as secure as Blackberry. Now, there are still several security measures we have to go through to get devices onto the work network, including device encryption. It’s not even to protect my company’s data but to protect customer data. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/59 "2016-02-17T17:29:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Radio and television use the public airwaves, and therefore the FCC can require manufacturers to anything the FCC believes is necessary. Does this not hold true for cell phones as well? It might hold true for cell phones’ radio use of the airwaves. I am not aware of any authority for the proposition that the FCC would have plenary authority over every aspect of cell phone software design apart from that which affected the radio signals cell phones use. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/60 "2016-02-17T17:32:24Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The FBI is trying to force Apple to write a new version of their iOS with a security backdoor built in. Please indicate where the court order demands “a new version of their OS with a backdoor put in”. > [@](#): > > Can you not see that if such an operating system is created, then hackers can then use and exploit this new OS to hack into people’s iPhones? Noone is proposing a new operating system be created, so the question is moot. How do you expect “hackers” would get their hands on it, anyway? Is the FBI going to just give it to them? > [@](#): > > And arguing that this new OS would be restricted to Syed Farook’s phone is a bunch of BS. It’s like opening Pandora’s box. Once such an OS is created, it will get out.) If that’s true, then it is inevitable that “it will get out” whether or not Apple complies, because if they don’t code the app, someone else will. > [@bump](#): > > The risk from terrorists is infinitesimal compared to the problems with the government having unfettered access to everything you do. No law-abiding person has anything to fear from the US government having access to its information, and no criminal has any _right_ to block that access. > [@](#): > > Have you never read _1984_? Yes. Your point being? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=4)