# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/601 "2016-03-16T21:44:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …your cites on Matt Blaze are not on point, because nobody in this threat…is suggesting that encrypted devices have a “second key under the mat.”… His point was _having_ a backdoor jeopardizes the confidence and robustness of encryption. This was likewise the general consensus at the 2016 RSA Cryptographer’s Panel: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76qLOrna1w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76qLOrna1w) The government is essentially requesting Apple create a backdoor via a custom iOS, which is possible because currently iPhones will accept a new iOS without entering a password. This is a vital point because a common lay perspective is “just have a really good back door and keep it secret”. The RSA cryptographers plus Matt Blaze argue that is technically risky. Apple may now feel forced to alter iPhone design so it no longer accepts iOS updates without a user’s physically-entered password, which itself would be encrypted in the Secure Enclave cryptographic coprocessor. That would close any possibility of breaking in except for chip decapping. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/602 "2016-03-16T22:22:05Z")
I asked this before but nobody replied. I just want to know if its generally assumed that: 1. The government is trying to force Apple’s hand so it can set a legal precedent and they can probably already unlock that specific phone already 2. The above is why the government doesn’t just tell Apple “Ok, unlock the phone but don’t give us the tools to do it, just tell us what’s on the phone” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/603 "2016-03-16T22:23:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It is totally redonkulous to think a SCIF costs $50 million to build. I’ve been to hundreds of SCIFs, and that cost estimate is completely bonkers. It’s utterly laughable, but in any case, in my view the government would be on the hook to pay for such a thing if the government demanded that Apple work in a SCIF. It’s high. Not so sure it’s crazy zany high. Of course, it depends on the size of the facility, but for TS cleared SCIFs $280 - $330 per square foot is not unheard of. I have no idea what floor space is needed. But if the facility build is, say, $300 per square foot as a raw cost, and to that we add overhead, G&A, and fee, and then initial T&E/acceptance testing, and then start discussing the IT costs, we get into the 10 million range for a moderately sized facility. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/604 "2016-03-16T22:28:08Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I asked this before but nobody replied. I just want to know if its generally assumed that: > > 1. The government is trying to force Apple’s hand so it can set a legal precedent and **they can probably already unlock that specific phone already** > > 2. The above is why the government doesn’t just tell Apple “Ok, unlock the phone but don’t give us the tools to do it, just tell us what’s on the phone” (Emphasis added) In my view: no, the bolded portion of (1) is not the case However, the government does have an uncontroversial legal path open to them that would make (1)'s bolded portion true. To avoid taking that path, I think they seek a precedent with this approach. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/605 "2016-03-16T22:40:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Under direction 1, nobody is necessarily compelling anyone to weaken security on any device, nor is someone compelled to put broccoli on their plate for every meal. So your slippery slope argument that offering technical assistance, if authorized by law, necessarily leads to the government directing that back doors be placed in all encryption is exposed as the illogical hysteria that it really is. You’re changing the rules of your own hypothetical. You started with this: > [@](#): > > (For the purpose of this exercise, prohibiting the government from cracking open a phone is not an option, it’s only a matter of how it is done.) But, now you’re saying that with option 1, it is actually allowable to make a phone that can’t be cracked. So, why isn’t it possible in option 2 as well? The NSA have many capabilities, but they aren’t wizards. Whether or not they can get into this particular phone, it’s certainly possible to design a phone they cannot get into. I mean, the operating budgets of the NSA and Apple are in the same ballpark. If Apple can design a phone that they can’t crack (even with their private keys available), what makes you so sure the NSA can get in? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/606 "2016-03-16T22:42:07Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > 1. The above is why the government doesn’t just tell Apple “Ok, unlock the phone but don’t give us the tools to do it, just tell us what’s on the phone” My understanding is that this is essentially exactly what they’ve asked. But, the point is, if they can compel Apple to do so in this case, then they can do it in any case where they have a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/607 "2016-03-16T23:08:12Z")
> [@joema](#): > > His point was _having_ a backdoor jeopardizes the confidence and robustness of encryption. This was likewise the general consensus at the 2016 RSA Cryptographer’s Panel: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76qLOrna1w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76qLOrna1w) > > The government is essentially requesting Apple create a backdoor via a custom iOS, which is possible because currently iPhones will accept a new iOS without entering a password. This is a vital point because a common lay perspective is “just have a really good back door and keep it secret”. The RSA cryptographers plus Matt Blaze argue that is technically risky. > > Apple may now feel forced to alter iPhone design so it no longer accepts iOS updates without a user’s physically-entered password, which itself would be encrypted in the Secure Enclave cryptographic coprocessor. That would close any possibility of breaking in except for chip decapping. Exploiting a security flaw (whether there intentionally or not) it not the same thing as weakening an encryption algorithm. Period. > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s high. > > Not so sure it’s crazy zany high. Of course, it depends on the size of the facility, but for TS cleared SCIFs $280 - $330 per square foot is not unheard of. I have no idea what floor space is needed. But if the facility build is, say, $300 per square foot as a raw cost, and to that we add overhead, G&A, and fee, and then initial T&E/acceptance testing, and then start discussing the IT costs, we get into the 10 million range for a moderately sized facility. Let me be more precise: there’s absolutely no way you can convince me that Apple would have to build a new building to accommodate a SCIF. Refitting office space to be a SCIF isn’t something you do on a weekend with stuff from Home Depot, but there is oodles and oodles of commercial office space around DC that has been redone to accommodate SCIFs. The concept that Apple must pay for a whole new building in Silicon Valley is patently absurd and not credible in the slightest. SCIFs do not need to be surrounded by tall fences, barbed wire, and all that stuff. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > You’re changing the rules of your own hypothetical. You started with this: > > But, now you’re saying that with option 1, it is actually allowable to make a phone that can’t be cracked. So, why isn’t it possible in option 2 as well? The NSA have many capabilities, but they aren’t wizards. Whether or not they can get into this particular phone, it’s certainly possible to design a phone they cannot get into. > > I mean, the operating budgets of the NSA and Apple are in the same ballpark. If Apple can design a phone that they can’t crack (even with their private keys available), what makes you so sure the NSA can get in? I think you misinterpreted my caveat. The thesis of my question does not suppose that any cracking effort must be successful - I’m simply saying that best effort is required in either choice. Results are not guaranteed, but “don’t try to crack the phone” is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/608 "2016-03-16T23:21:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (Emphasis added)In my view: no, the bolded portion of (1) is not the case. The truth is that we don’t know, for sure. But I don’t think the evidence is necessarily with the FBI on this one. Former Cybersecurity Chief Richard Clarke [believes the NSA could unlock the phone](http://bgr.com/2016/03/15/apple-fbi-san-bernardino-iphone-nsa/): > [@](#): > > \*f he were still doing his former job, he “would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them.” Asked to expand on this charge, the former cybersecurity chief said that every expert he knows “believes that NSA could crack this phone.” > > Clarke added that the FBI and DOJ are not interested in solving the problem, “as they are getting a legal precedent,” so that the government can “compel a computer device manufacturer to allow the government in.” Notably, the FBI admitted that they did not ask the NSA for help. And when Comey was directly pressed about whether the NSA had this power, he evaded the question. Indeed, there is some [skepticism](https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/one-fbis-major-claims-iphone-case-fraudulent) about whether the FBI cannot do this itself. So I think there is some chance this is 100% about getting the precedent, which may allow them to do this more cheaply and routinely, and may also apply to areas where they really don’t currently have a solution (WhatsApp?). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/609 "2016-03-16T23:33:53Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The truth is that we don’t know, for sure. But I don’t think the evidence is necessarily with the FBI on this one. > > Former Cybersecurity Chief Richard Clarke [believes the NSA could unlock the phone](http://bgr.com/2016/03/15/apple-fbi-san-bernardino-iphone-nsa/): The problem is that Clarke does not identify the experts, nor does he or anyone else I have read explain how the NSA can crack the phone. Do they believe the NSA already has Apple’s private key, and has written a signed OS update that disables the retry lockout? That’s at least plausible. Do they believe that the NSA can brute force 256 AES ? That’s not. ---
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/610 "2016-03-16T23:34:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Exploiting a security flaw (whether there intentionally or not) it not the same thing as weakening an encryption algorithm. Period. In practical terms it is the same thing. See this article which explains it: > **[What the government should’ve learned about backdoors from the Clipper Chip](https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/12/what-the-government-shouldve-learned-about-backdoors-from-the-clipper-chip/)** > > The Obama administration's calls for backdoors echo the Clinton-era key escrow fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/611 "2016-03-16T23:45:27Z")
No, they aren’t the same thing. The FBI still needs to brute force the passcode. If it were a complex passcode, they would never be able to do it even if the modified iOS were loaded onto an iPhone to disable the 10-tries-and-erase feature. These security features are not interchangable, they are complimentary. And the Clipper Chip has fuck-all to do with dumping the contents of a phone after ten errors. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/612 "2016-03-17T00:09:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do they believe the NSA already has Apple’s private key, and has written a signed OS update that disables the retry lockout? That’s at least plausible. Lots of other options, too. They could have figured out a hardware hack to avoid the reset (indeed, it already seems to be public knowledge that this is possible, using at least two different methods). Or they could have captured the data in transit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/613 "2016-03-17T00:23:09Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The truth is that we don’t know, for sure. But I don’t think the evidence is necessarily with the FBI on this one. > > Former Cybersecurity Chief Richard Clarke [believes the NSA could unlock the phone](http://bgr.com/2016/03/15/apple-fbi-san-bernardino-iphone-nsa/): > > Notably, the FBI admitted that they did not ask the NSA for help. And when Comey was directly pressed about whether the NSA had this power, he evaded the question. > > Indeed, there is some [skepticism](https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/one-fbis-major-claims-iphone-case-fraudulent) about whether the FBI cannot do this itself. > > So I think there is some chance this is 100% about getting the precedent, which may allow them to do this more cheaply and routinely, and may also apply to areas where they really don’t currently have a solution (WhatsApp?). Consider that this was a work phone. They destroyed their private phones. The odds of it having anything on it can be found on the corner of Slim and None. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/614 "2016-03-17T00:39:45Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I asked this before but nobody replied. I just want to know if its generally assumed that: > > 1. The government is trying to force Apple’s hand so it can set a legal precedent and they can probably already unlock that specific phone already It’s not clear whether the government can unlock this specific phone with its own resources (best estimates based on known crypto capabilities are “probably”). It is known that the government would already have the contents of the phone if they hadn’t directed the San Bernadino County IT people to bollix the phone’s iCloud sync. > [@](#): > > 1. The above is why the government doesn’t just tell Apple “Ok, unlock the phone but don’t give us the tools to do it, just tell us what’s on the phone” A more fundamental reason they can’t do that is that it would be a flagrant breach of evidence chain-of-custody. Allowing the procedure you suggest opens the door to the following scenario: > [@](#): > > **FBI:** We have a warrant to examine this phone, but can’t get into it. Can you help? > **E. Ville Genius:** _(notices the name of the guy who stole his girlfriend, keyed his car, and ran over his cat engraved on the phone)_ Sure! Er… there’s just one thing. I have to use special secret software and I can’t let you look at it. > **FBI:** That’s a bit irregular, but OK. > _(later)_ > **FBI:** Geez… kiddie porn, meth recipes, jihadi propaganda… we thought this guy was just stealing credit card numbers! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/615 "2016-03-17T00:43:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > SCIFs do not need to be surrounded by tall fences, barbed wire, and all that stuff. If the facility is protecting something as valuable as Apple’s source code and all the financial transactions, etc, that would be exposed by releasing a backdoor into the wild, tall fences and barbed wire would be mere warning signs before an intruder starts to encounter the _real_ security. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/616 "2016-03-17T01:22:42Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > If the facility is protecting something as valuable as Apple’s source code and all the financial transactions, etc, that would be exposed by releasing a backdoor into the wild, tall fences and barbed wire would be mere warning signs before an intruder starts to encounter the _real_ security. Well, considering that Apple already protects its source code, I must presume that they already have some kind of security. Maybe a few mall cops guarding a a mattress with the private keys hidden underneath. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/617 "2016-03-17T01:43:10Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Lots of other options, too. They could have figured out a hardware hack to avoid the reset (indeed, it already seems to be public knowledge that this is possible, using at least two different methods). Or they could have captured the data in transit. True. And if this is an iPhone 5C (using the A6 chip) there are absolutely options along those lines. Still might need weeks to brute force a 6-digit pin. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/618 "2016-03-17T01:44:04Z")
IIRC, the FBI’s affidavit says it is 4-digit. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/619 "2016-03-17T11:09:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > IIRC, the FBI’s affidavit says it is 4-digit. How would they know that? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/620 "2016-03-17T11:13:18Z")
Because when they hit the home button, there’s the screen that says “enter PIN” or whatever and there are four spaces displayed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=32)