# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/61 "2016-02-17T17:34:43Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Radio and television use the public airwaves, and therefore the FCC can require manufacturers to anything the FCC believes is necessary. Does this not hold true for cell phones as well? (A) I don’t believe the handheld computer’s OS and storage are within the FCC purview and (B) I’m not too sure the FCC’s mandate really requires manufacturers to do absolutely “ **anything** the FCC believes necessary” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/62 "2016-02-17T17:41:42Z")
A little bit off topic: Generally, if you have a murderer and its pretty clear who did it (and lets say the guy is dead), why would the police need his phone? Is it standard procedure to assume there’s a bigger coverup or conspirators for any murder? Or does the police want to look into this guy’s phone because of the terrorism angle and possibly see if he had ties to sleeper cells? I mean, both the guy and his wife are dead, the guilt is indisputable, but there’s no case because there’s no living defendant. Why even bother with his phone? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/63 "2016-02-17T17:42:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please indicate where the court order demands “a new version of their OS with a backdoor put in”. > > Noone is proposing a new operating system be created, so the question is moot. Did you read the OP? I quoted Tim Cook: > [@](#): > > But now the U.S. government has asked us for something we simply do not have, and something we consider too dangerous to create. They have asked us to build a backdoor to the iPhone. > > **Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system** , circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation. (bolding mine) You are wrong about it being “just an app”. You are wrong about it not being a new OS. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/64 "2016-02-17T17:43:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No law-abiding person has anything to fear from the US government having access to its information, … Cite? You made that statement; now prove it! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/65 "2016-02-17T17:43:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No law-abiding person has anything to fear from the US government having access to its information, and no criminal has any _right_ to block that access. Thomas Jefferson? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/66 "2016-02-17T17:44:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Did you read the OP? I quoted Tim Cook:(bolding mine) Then Tim Cook is being deliberately untruthful, because the court order does not mention a new OS at any point in the text. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/67 "2016-02-17T17:45:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then Tim Cook is being deliberately untruthful, because the court order does not mention a new OS at any point in the text. Are you claiming to know more about iPhone software and hardware than the CEO of Apple? :dubious: Are you claiming to know that the software that the government asks for, but which Mr. Cook says does not exist, does in fact exist? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/68 "2016-02-17T17:45:57Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Cite? > You made that statement; now prove it! What, specifically, is it that you’re afraid of happening if the government is able to look in your phone? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/69 "2016-02-17T17:47:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you claiming to know more about iPhone software and hardware than the CEO of Apple? :dubious: I’m claiming that the words/phrases “backdoor” and “new version of the OS” are not anywhere to be found in the court order and are not an accurate description of what the court order is demanding of Apple, and Tim Cook is being dishonest by using those words. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/70 "2016-02-17T17:48:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What, specifically, is it that you’re afraid of happening if the government is able to look in your phone? I’ve got some pictures they have no business viewing. Fucking perverts. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/71 "2016-02-17T17:49:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m claiming that the words/phrases “backdoor” and “new version of the OS” are not anywhere to be found in the court order and are not an accurate description of what the court order is demanding of Apple, and Tim Cook is being dishonest by using those words. Your claim is stupid, spurious and ignorant. It is detached from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/72 "2016-02-17T17:51:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your claim is stupid, spurious and ignorant. It is detached from reality. Please cite the part of the court order that demands Apple create either a backdoor or a new version of iOS. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/73 "2016-02-17T17:52:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Noone is proposing a new operating system be created, so the question is moot. How do you expect “hackers” would get their hands on it, anyway? Is the FBI going to just give it to them? > If that’s true, then it is inevitable that “it will get out” whether or not Apple complies, because if they don’t code the app, someone else will. > No law-abiding person has anything to fear from the US government having access to its information, and no criminal has any _right_ to block that access. Remember Robert Hanssen, the FBI agent who spied for Russia? Why do you trust the FBI so much to keep secrets safe? I’m not surprised at your position on this. But I would like to point out that law-abiding people DO, in fact, have things to fear regarding the government. Totally aside from the issues of corruption, espionage, etc., there is always the possibility of a genuine mistake that nobody catches in time. In addition, even though you probably will not believe me, the FBI’s attempt is a horribly poor idea in principle. One of the most basic, fundamental building blocks of the Founders’ philosophy can be summed up thusly: “The right to be left alone.” THAT is why the Constitution has so many checks on the government’s power. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/74 "2016-02-17T17:53:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What, specifically, is it that you’re afraid of happening if the government is able to look in your phone? Maybe I’ll tell you once you offer some proof of your claim that our government is trustworthy. The thousands of law-abiding citizens who have been [convicted of crimes they didn’t commit](http://www.innocenceproject.org/) is pretty damning evidence to the contrary as far as I’m concerned. So again, you made a claim that “ **No** law-abiding person has anything to fear from the US government having access to its information.” Either you can prove that claim, or it’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/75 "2016-02-17T17:57:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m claiming that the words/phrases “backdoor” and “new version of the OS” are not anywhere to be found in the court order and are not an accurate description of what the court order is demanding of Apple, and Tim Cook is being dishonest by using those words. I don’t agree. The order does not say “new version of the OS,” and so I agree with that part of your claim. However, it does say: > [@](#): > > Apple’s reasonable technical assistance may include, but is not limited to: providing the FBI with a signed iPhone Software file, recovery bundle, or other Software Image File (“SIF”) that can be loaded onto the SUBJECT DEVICE. The SIF will load and run from Random Access Memory and will not modify the iOS on the actual phone, the user data partition or system partition on the device’s flash memory. The SIF will be coded by Apple with a unique identifier of the phone so that the SIF would only load and execute on the SUBJECT DEVICE. The SIF will be loaded via Device Firmware Upgrade (“DFU”) mode, recovery mode, or other applicable mode available to the FBI. Once active on the SUBJECT DEVICE, the SIF will accomplish the three functions specified in paragraph 2. The SIF will be loaded on the SUBJECT DEVICE at either a government facility, or alternatively, at an Apple facility; if the latter, Apple shall provide the government with remote access to the SUBJECT DEVICE through a computer allowing the government to conduct passcode recovery analysis. The described SIF does not exist at present. If it “load[s] and run[s] from Random Access Memory,” then it is an OS, an operating system. Therefore, the order does in fact demand that Apple create a new version of an OS. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/76 "2016-02-17T18:01:15Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Not a corporate secret. What is proposed is something that doesn’t exist, and there is a strong possibility that it can’t exist. If it can’t exist then it can’t exist and I would assume that makes the order invalid. Otherwise, it is perfectly reasonable to unlock private information on this particular phone, owned by a terrorist. If Apple does have the capability to do this they have no basis to reject the request. As far as the privacy argument, I don’t see any basis for people to expect the gadgets they buy to maintain their privacy. Apple can break into your phones any time they want and now the concern is because the government wants them to break into one phone owned by a terrorist and everybody is worried about their privacy. It doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/77 "2016-02-17T18:14:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If it can’t exist then it can’t exist and I would assume that makes the order invalid. Otherwise, it is perfectly reasonable to unlock private information on this particular phone, owned by a terrorist. If Apple does have the capability to do this they have no basis to reject the request. The software does not exist. It could exist, but to bring it into being, Apple engineers and coders would have to design it and write it. Apple has the capability to do this creative design. But I don’t agree the court has the authority to require them to do it. > [@](#): > > As far as the privacy argument, I don’t see any basis for people to expect the gadgets they buy to maintain their privacy. Apple can break into your phones any time they want and now the concern is because the government wants them to break into one phone owned by a terrorist and everybody is worried about their privacy. It doesn’t make sense. Apple cannot break into your phones any time it wants. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/78 "2016-02-17T18:18:27Z")
Security on phones nowadays is such that it is not easily decryptable. This was the point of the thread from 2014. [Here was the article in question.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/2014/09/25/68c4e08e-4344-11e4-9a15-137aa0153527_story.html) The government should be able to search with a valid warrant. There is no requirement their search must be successful. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/79 "2016-02-17T18:29:32Z")
And - While you are writing that “Special” O/S, could you: Have it check its number against this little database we don’t talk about, and, if the number is a “special” one: 1. broadcast geotag every hour 2. use accelerometer to determine when it is raised, and take a pic and just send it along. 3. oh yes, and transmit every call as it happens 4. send along any photos or videos it happens to record Yes, this is the _Dred Scott_ case for a new generation. This is the “CT” nightmare of turning all those cameras, location trackers and microphones into an intelligence collection network. A network beyond the wildest dreams of even the most evil dictators of all time. I want Apple to self-destruct before complying. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/80 "2016-02-17T18:33:47Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Second, in order to make what was not possible, possible, Apple would have to change how iPhones are designed to ALLOW what the court orders to become possible. This would not affect current phones, but future phones. And once that weakness is baked into the iPhone, then anyone could build an exploit to use it. You’re misunderstanding. The iPhone currently uses encryption that’s unbreakable except by brute force, where you try to guess what the password might be. No one is proposing that Apple be forced to use compromised encryption. The iPhone also has a self-destruct feature, where it will delete all its info if the wrong password is guessed at ten times. It’s this self-destruct feature that the FBI wants disabled. That’s not the same thing as a back door or compromised encryption. > [@robby](#): > > (And arguing that this new OS would be restricted to Syed Farook’s phone is a bunch of BS. It’s like opening Pandora’s box. Once such an OS is created, it will get out.) I’m not sure how I feel about this - the self-destruct feature is something that helps keep our data private, it’s an extra layer of security on top of what already should be unbreakable if you use a strong password. Even if the OS without self-destruct got out, it shouldn’t be an issue. No one short of the NSA could even have a hope of breaking into it, and that’s with considerable resources assigned to the task. What would people here say about Apple getting the phone, and then giving the FBI the encrypted files that are on it? If they did that, a reduced-security OS would never have to exist outside of Apple. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=5)