# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/101 "2016-02-17T19:30:14Z")
How about cloning the phone, encrypted data and all? Is that possible? It should be, and then you could just keep the original untouched, and brute-force the passwords on one clone at a time, throwing out each clone as it self-destructs. This would also enable bypassing the delay to enter a password, because you could run the search in parallel on all clones at once. As for entering the passwords through some means other than the touchscreen, doesn’t Apple support external hardware keyboards? And can’t you enter a password using one? OK, then, you can also make a device that plugs into the same port and sends the same signals a keyboard would, automatically, without need for mechanical keys. Both of these should be within the FBI’s capabilities, without any cooperation from Apple at all. Why not just do so? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/102 "2016-02-17T19:30:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You trust the government? A lot more than I trust Apple, for sure. > [@](#): > > I don’t want this backdrop hack sitting in an unecrypted server in someone’s bathroom. It’s a good thing that won’t happen, then. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/103 "2016-02-17T19:35:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Smapti is dead wrong. The FBI wants Apple to market its products to terrorists, by making our devices more vulnerable to the likes of ISIS and Al Qaida. And Apple rightly told them to fuck off. The FBI wants to _protect_ your life and your information from criminals who can conduct their deeds in secrecy with unbreakable encryption. Apple is putting profits ahead of their patriotic duty and the public good and is pandering to the paranoid fantasies of people who read too many sci-fi novels in their teens. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/104 "2016-02-17T19:55:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The possibility of “technically-capable criminals” having infiltrated the FBI and stealing their software is so unlikely as to hardly merit contemplation. If you’d been paying attention, you’d know that the government’s cybersecurity is downright pathetic. For example, Chinese Intelligence almost certainly already has somebody by the short and curlies (thanks to the OPM hack of security-clearance data) who would be in a position to send them a copy of the software if Apple is forced to develop it for the Feds. > [@](#): > > It’s far more likely that some freelance hacker will eventually reverse-engineer Apple’s software and create a tool like this on their own, _regardless_ of whether or not Apple complied with this order. Well, let the FBI do it themselves, then, if it’s that easy. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/105 "2016-02-17T20:00:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A lot more than I trust Apple, for sure. That’s one of you. I certainly trust Apple a few orders of magnitude more than I trust the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/106 "2016-02-17T20:02:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m claiming that the words/phrases “backdoor” and “new version of the OS” are not anywhere to be found in the court order Yeah, and the words “deficit increases under my tax plan” and “destruction of the middle class through my economic policies” are not anywhere to be found in politicians’ rhetoric. By your reasoning, this proves that no proposed policy of any candidate for office could possibly result in either of those results. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/107 "2016-02-17T20:03:25Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, let the FBI do it themselves, then, if it’s that easy. Maybe the FBI could you know, arrest the person that does this instead of joining them themselves. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/108 "2016-02-17T20:04:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How about cloning the phone, encrypted data and all? Is that possible? It should be, and then you could just keep the original untouched, and brute-force the passwords on one clone at a time, throwing out each clone as it self-destructs. I’m not sure if it’s possible - I think you need a phone’s password to clone it, at least with the software that currently exists. It should be easy to do for the software developers to allow it, but then you’re back to square one, asking the developers to implement a feature (or turn off a feature) that’s different from what’s on the market. > [@cmyk](#): > > So, say several employees of Apple now have access to this new, yet very valuable and dangerous code. You’re comfortable with this? **treis** has been giving fact-based answers in this thread (thanks treis!), so let’s take a minute to really understand what’s going on. A few points: - The encryption used on the iPhone is strong, and no one has asked that Apple compromise it (at least not in this thread, the FBI has been asking that manufacturers give them back doors but that’s not the question here). Tim Cook’s letter, IMO, used needlessly hyperbolic claims about what’s going on here. - treis, please fact-check this: the software load on an iPhone is also encrypted, so that a phone will reject an OS load that does not have the proper Apple signature. Apple’s signature is private and no one has asked them to reveal it to any authorities. However, there are Apple employees who have access to it, so there is a theoretical risk that an employee could leak the info, just like they could leak a version of iOS without the self-destruct feature. Thus the hypothetical non-self-destruct software doesn’t have any increased risk beyond what’s already there. - Is the following true? Apple could give the FBI an OS update for that particular iPhone, which would be rejected by every other iPhone. If this is true, I think Apple as a good citizen should give the government what they want. I’m a huge privacy advocate, and I think strong encryption is a benefit to mankind. Corporations don’t have to make an intentionally compromised product at the whim of the NSA/FBI. But if a corporation has the ability to easily help law enforcement, and there is a warrant through a valid court (not the secret Patriot Act court), Apple should willingly do this for them. It doesn’t jeopardize my privacy to disable the self-destruct feature in the limited number of cases where there is a valid law enforcement objective, heard by a valid court. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/109 "2016-02-17T20:04:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > If you’d been paying attention, you’d know that the government’s cybersecurity is downright pathetic. For example, Chinese Intelligence almost certainly already has somebody by the short and curlies (thanks to the OPM hack of security-clearance data) who would be in a position to send them a copy of the software if Apple is forced to develop it for the Feds. A copy of the software does nothing because it is specific to one device. What they would need is the source code and Apple’s secret key. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/110 "2016-02-17T20:05:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please cite the part of the court order that demands Apple create either a backdoor or a new version of iOS. It’s already been cited for you more than once now. If you don’t understand the court order, Tim Cook’s letter and/or the facts about the technology involved, I;m sorry but I can’t help you any more. Good luck with your specious arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/111 "2016-02-17T20:05:38Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, let the FBI do it themselves, then, if it’s that easy. They certainly could reverse-engineer ios, but that’d take time - and by then, the intelligence on Farook’s phone may no longer be useful, and innocent lives may have already been lost due to Apple’s stonewalling. > [@](#): > > For example, Chinese Intelligence almost certainly already has somebody by the short and curlies (thanks to the OPM hack of security-clearance data) who would be in a position to send them a copy of the software if Apple is forced to develop it for the Feds. And then China could… Have more time to try and guess Syed Farook’s password after they take physical possession of his phone? What, exactly, is it that you’re afraid will happen here? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/112 "2016-02-17T20:07:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > A copy of the software does nothing because it is specific to one device. What they would need is the source code and Apple’s secret key. Apple says there is no secret key. > [@](#): > > We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business. Do you have any evidence that contradicts what Apple says? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/113 "2016-02-17T20:18:12Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Apple says there is no secret key. Do you have any evidence that contradicts what Apple says? Different things. Apple’s secret key allows them to create software that you can verify came from Apple and only Apple. What Apple is saying is that there is no master key that allows them to decrypt any iPhone. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/114 "2016-02-17T20:18:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Apple says there is no secret key. Do you have any evidence that contradicts what Apple says? Different thing. There is no secret backdoor that Apple has which will decrypt a user’s data on his phone. But there is a secret key that Apple has which allows an iPhone to accept an iOS load. That’s what treis was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/115 "2016-02-17T20:23:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Does the court have the authority to have the phone company type in the instructions to trace a phone call? Software is no different, it is a set of instructions to do something already possible, like manually throwing a switch. The court does not order some employee of the phone company to trace a call, they order the phone company to do it through a company principal who must then instruct a technician to do perform the task. Apple writing this software is no different. Language is simply the aggregation of 26 letters into various groups, but that doesn’t mean I can write a great sequel to The Sun Also Rises. There is a strong distinction between the administrative task of tracing a phone – which involves simply providing data that already exists – and creating a new module, a new piece of software. > [@](#): > > They can do what the government is requesting (if it is possible) any time that they want. Sure, and John Williams can write another stirring movie score any time he wants. The government can subpoena any of Williams’ existing movie sheet music. It cannot order him to write a new one. Even though he could do it any time he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/116 "2016-02-17T20:24:55Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Different thing. There is no secret backdoor that Apple has which will decrypt a user’s data on his phone. > > But there is a secret key that Apple has which allows an iPhone to accept an iOS load. That’s what treis was referring to. Yes. Apple’s private key(s) can absolutely be subpoenaed. Apple has no legal basis to resist this. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/117 "2016-02-17T20:39:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It’s already been cited for you more than once now. If you don’t understand the court order, Tim Cook’s letter and/or the facts about the technology involved, I;m sorry but I can’t help you any more. I understand the court order. Tim Cook understands the court order too, and he’s assuming that Apple’s customers _don’t_. Apple is afraid sales will drop if people think there’s a “backdoor” that can be used to “hack” their phones, and he’s pandering to people who won’t read the court order and don’t understand that what they’re being asked to do is of absolutely no risk to them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/118 "2016-02-17T20:42:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I understand the court order. Tim Cook understands the court order too, and he’s assuming that Apple’s customers _don’t_. Apple is afraid sales will drop if people think there’s a “backdoor” that can be used to “hack” their phones, and he’s pandering to people who won’t read the court order and don’t understand that what they’re being asked to do is of absolutely no risk to them. Do you understand the the court is ordering Apple to create a new version of operating software, a version that does not now exist? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/119 "2016-02-17T20:45:26Z")
I gather the FBI hasn’t asked Apple to hack the phone themselves because Apple could leak the info out of spite, or even alter the content. I think the FBI is also not wanting to show evidence that they’re capable of hacking iPhones themselves, because their motives have been suspect from the moment they were a wet spot in J. Edgar’s undershorts. They would be complicit in a crime for which they presumably exist to prevent and capture. They should have just kept this quiet instead of making a public spectacle out of it. It shows they are vulnerable, clueless, and unable to counter potential threats. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/120 "2016-02-17T20:48:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you understand the the court is ordering Apple to create a new version of operating software, a version that does not now exist? I understand that the court has ordered Apple to create an app that can be loaded into RAM via existing methods that will disable auto-erase and password fail delays, _or_ to achieve those functions by another means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=7)