# Should Apple help the government hack into encrypted devices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333 "2016-02-17T13:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/161 "2016-02-17T23:20:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > FRCP Rule 45 – the order subjects Apple to undue burden, and it requires Apple to disclose a trade secret or other confidential research, development or commercial information. You described Apple’s effort in complying with this as: > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t think creating this new software is difficult. If I had to hazard a guess, maybe a week for two coders and one engineer. Easy, in the scheme of things. But it’s not production of information already held. How can something that isn’t difficult and easy in the scheme of things be an undue burden? As for the trade secret objection, as far as I can tell Apple isn’t required to disclose anything. What trade secret do you think they will be forced to reveal? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/162 "2016-02-17T23:23:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I am not sure that this law controls, but the Wiretap Act seems to go much further than the “administrative task of tracing a phone.” The law reads: > As I read that, courts are able to compel certain businesses not only to provide access to equipment in order to allow the tap be installed, but also to provide technical assistance so that the tap may be installed in a certain way, that is, unobtrusively, and more important, successfully. > > I’m not sure what the practice is, but if Verizon rolls out a 5G service using proprietary software and advanced hardware, sure seems to me that Congress allowed for courts to direct Verizon to be much more of an active participant in the tapping of phones than simply saying: “Ok, FBI, here’s the keys to our office building. You’'ll find the server you’re looking for in the southwest corner of the 3rd floor. Don’t forget to turn the lights out when you’re done!” > > Now, I have no idea if the Wiretap Act applies in this particular situation. Is data at rest on an iPhone that was once transmitted electronically fit to be considered an “electronic communication?” Who knows. But I think the general principle that the government can compel certain companies to do more than simply provide access to infrastructure has been established, and decades ago at that. Yes, the government can indeed, if it wishes, by law compel companies to do more than simply provide access. I have no argument at all with that principle. So if Congress were to pass a law mandating that phone manufacturers “provide technical assistance so that data stored on the phone can be decrypted,” then Apple would have to comply, just like Verizon has to comply with the Wiretap Act. But here, there is no such law. The government is using a common law writ, a _subpoena duces tecum_, to try to get the cooperation they want. There is no rule in the subpoena duces tecum that mandates Apple provide technical assistance from coders to write a new application to decrypt data. A subpoena requires a party holding documents or information to produce those documents. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/163 "2016-02-17T23:30:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You described Apple’s effort in complying with this as: > > How can something that isn’t difficult and easy in the scheme of things be an undue burden? By requiring a type of work that is different than simply supplying existing information. > [@](#): > > As for the trade secret objection, as far as I can tell Apple isn’t required to disclose anything. What trade secret do you think they will be forced to reveal? The successful method of modifying an iPhone to allow brute-force hacking. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/164 "2016-02-17T23:30:49Z")
From a PR perspective, if Apple said that it was helping by spinning out an OS load that would work _on that one phone only_ and all it would do is disable the self-destruct, and emphasizes that the data encryption is not being compromised, would that hurt them? I think that would be fine with me, and I’m somewhat of a privacy/security nut. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/165 "2016-02-17T23:36:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This appears to suggest that you believe a court can order a lick builder to make a key as opposed to ordering him to surrender a key he already has. > > Is that your belief? I believe they can. I think it’s clear that the government can make people act. And on any reasonable objection they’ll demand the plans for the lock, which is what will happen to Apple if they don’t comply here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/166 "2016-02-17T23:41:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I believe they can. I think it’s clear that the government can make people act. And on any reasonable objection they’ll demand the plans for the lock, which is what will happen to Apple if they don’t comply here. Sure. A demand for the lock plans is a perfectly legitimate subpoena request. But your belief is wrong: they can demand all the plans in the lockmaker’s cabinet but cannot compel him to make a key – at least, not in the context of a subpoena. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/167 "2016-02-17T23:45:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. A demand for the lock plans is a perfectly legitimate subpoena request. > > But your belief is wrong: they can demand all the plans in the lockmaker’s cabinet but cannot compel him to make a key – at least, not in the context of a subpoena. What if making the key requires entering a code into the key making machine? Again, it doesn’t really matter because they can subpoena the code and seize the machine. The feds are being nice to Apple by giving them the chance to cooperate. If Apple wants to wait while the government gets a bigger boat that’s their problem. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/168 "2016-02-18T00:08:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A lot more than I trust Apple, for sure. > > It’s a good thing that won’t happen, then. What has the government done to earn that trust? Let me know when Apple’s agents shoot minorities in the back, plant evidence, accumulate 20 trillion in debt, etc. > [@Smapti](#): > > The FBI wants to _protect_ your life and your information from criminals who can conduct their deeds in secrecy with unbreakable encryption. Apple is putting profits ahead of their patriotic duty and the public good and is pandering to the paranoid fantasies of people who read too many sci-fi novels in their teens. The lessons of concentrated state power are current events and history. Not sci-fi. > [@silenus](#): > > That’s one of you. I certainly trust Apple a few orders of magnitude more than I trust the FBI. Nice to see someone else who takes the lessons of the 18th, 19th, and especially 20th century to heart. > [@Chronos](#): > > How about cloning the phone, encrypted data and all? Is that possible? It should be, and then you could just keep the original untouched, and brute-force the passwords on one clone at a time, throwing out each clone as it self-destructs. > > This would also enable bypassing the delay to enter a password, because you could run the search in parallel on all clones at once. > > As for entering the passwords through some means other than the touchscreen, doesn’t Apple support external hardware keyboards? And can’t you enter a password using one? OK, then, you can also make a device that plugs into the same port and sends the same signals a keyboard would, automatically, without need for mechanical keys. > > Both of these should be within the FBI’s capabilities, without any cooperation from Apple at all. Why not just do so? The FBI has multiple motives. One is to force manufacturers to include back doors. This incident may have political motives. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/169 "2016-02-18T00:14:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What has the government done to earn that trust? It has maintained the safety and prosperity of this nation and its people for nearly 250 years. Apple, on the other hand, is an organization that exists for the purpose of enriching its shareholders by exploiting Third World labor and enabling terrorists, drug lords, and human traffickers to commit their deeds untraceably. > [@](#): > > The lessons of concentrated state power are current events and history. Not sci-fi. > > Nice to see someone else who takes the lessons of the 18th, 19th, and especially 20th century to heart. The lessons of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries are that unchecked capitalism is _harmful_ to the people, the economy, and the planet itself, and that concentrated state power is the only force powerful enough to keep corporations in check and ensure that their enterprises serve the public good. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/170 "2016-02-18T00:16:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By requiring a type of work that is different than simply supplying existing information. Why does that make that make it an undue burden? > [@](#): > > The successful method of modifying an iPhone to allow brute-force hacking. Apple isn’t required to disclose their method. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/171 "2016-02-18T00:24:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It has maintained the safety and prosperity of this nation and its people for nearly 250 years. > > Apple, on the other hand, is an organization that exists for the purpose of enriching its shareholders by exploiting Third World labor and enabling terrorists, drug lords, and human traffickers to commit their deeds untraceably. > > The lessons of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries are that unchecked capitalism is _harmful_ to the people, the economy, and the planet itself, and that concentrated state power is the only force powerful enough to keep corporations in check and ensure that their enterprises serve the public good. When Bill Gates and Walt Disney head organizations that kill 1/1000th of the people that Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc have had killed by their _governments_ I will worry about scary old Hershy and PepsiCo. When Apple opens Gitmo and waterboards people, seizes cash and vehicles with no warrant, sells firearms to cartels, etc I’ll worry about Apple more so than the government. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/172 "2016-02-18T00:28:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > When Bill Gates and Walt Disney head organizations that kill 1/1000th of the people that Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc have had killed by their _governments_ I will worry about scary old Hershy and PepsiCo. What position of authority do Stalin, Hitler, and Mao hold in the FBI? > [@](#): > > When Apple opens Gitmo and waterboards people, seizes cash and vehicles with no warrant, sells firearms to cartels, etc I’ll worry about Apple more so than the government. How about [forced child labor](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/even-worse-than-foxconn-apple-rocked-by-child-labour-claims-8736504.html)? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/173 "2016-02-18T00:32:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What position of authority do Stalin, Hitler, and Mao hold in the FBI? None. That’s irrelevant. What’s relevant is the nature of blindly trusting and empowering an institution that has killed more people than any other. Would you trust the people who work in government to ALL your information? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/174 "2016-02-18T00:34:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What’s relevant is the nature of blindly trusting and empowering an institution that has killed more people than any other. Cite that the US government has “killed more people than any other” organization to ever exist? > [@](#): > > Would you trust the people who work in government to ALL your information? Yes. Would you trust Apple to all of yours? I’m guessing you already do. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/175 "2016-02-18T00:44:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Would you trust Apple to all of yours? I’m guessing you already do. Apple does not have your personal information; that has been pointed out several times in this thread. Here; I’ll cite it again: > [@Tim Cook](#): > > We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business. Apple does not have and does not want your personal information. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/176 "2016-02-18T00:46:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite that the US government has “killed more people than any other” organization to ever exist? > > Yes. > > Would you trust Apple to all of yours? I’m guessing you already do. Government is the institution to worry about. Just like you used the word corporations. I don’t trust anyone to all my information. It’s funny that you trust a government that wrongfully imprisons, seizes property, tortures, assassinates, and executes people. You believe police are your friend? You going to refuse counsel if you are ever arrested or detained? The police care about you and are working for your best interests. Tell me why you’d ever want an attorney? Or a jury trial. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/177 "2016-02-18T00:48:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This appears to suggest that you believe a court can order a lick builder to make a key as opposed to ordering him to surrender a key he already has. > > Is that your belief? That about seems incorrect to me. The proper analogue would be requiring a safe maker to disable the bomb inside the safe that explodes when the lock is tampered with. Apple is essentially being asked to disable a self-destruct mechanism, not to open the phone. I think comparing it to a key is wrong because it implies that they are granting access to an object when they aren’t in actuality doing that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/178 "2016-02-18T00:48:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Apple does not have your personal information; that has been pointed out several times in this thread. Here; I’ll cite it again:Apple does not have and does not want your personal information. I would not believe that they don’t want it. I believe they’ve made the calculation that the value of the good will with strong privacy is sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/179 "2016-02-18T00:59:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Apple does not have your personal information; that has been pointed out several times in this thread. Here; I’ll cite it again:Apple does not have and does not want your personal information. To be fair, how do you know that? Just because Tim Cook says they don’t? And what are the limits of personal information? Apple certainly could know where I go, who I call, who my contacts are, what I take pictures of, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333/180 "2016-02-18T01:03:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Apple does not have your personal information; that has been pointed out several times in this thread. They have your name and address. They have your billing information. Chances are they have your SSN and access to your credit record. They know where you are at any given moment of the day. They have records of every phone call and text message you send or receive. They probably know _more_ about you than the government does. Are you OK with that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-apple-help-the-government-hack-into-encrypted-devices/746333.md?page=10)