# Should Australia award knighthoods? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574 "2014-03-26T01:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/41 "2014-03-27T01:24:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And they wear suits of armor, and joust against one another in tourneys. > > Or at least, that’s how I understand it. Your understanding is completely wrong. Would you like me to provide references? > [@](#): > > If not, what’s the point? My point is that Knight is an office that someone holds. It’s right there in black and white. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/42 "2014-03-27T01:27:26Z")
BTW, does any other Commonwealth government but the UK’s grant knighthoods or baronetcies or peerages at present? I know that [Kyle is a Knight in Canada,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Pudding) but that’s rather a special case. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/43 "2014-03-27T01:36:36Z")
Oh, and, apropos of nothing, [here’s](http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Culture/Extras/foreigners.html) an unforgettable and too-good-not-to-use-here national slur from P.J. O’Rourke in _National Lampoon’s_ classic 1975 “Unwanted Foreigners” issue: > [@](#): > > **AUSTRALIANS** > > **Racial Characteristics:** Violently loud alcoholic roughnecks whose idea of fun is to throw up on your car. The national sport is breaking furniture and the average daily consumption of beer in Sydney is ten and three quarters Imperial gallons for children under the age of nine. “Making a Shambles” is required study in the primary schools and all Australians are bilingual, speaking both English and Sheep. Possibly as a result of their country’s being upside down, the local dialect has over 400 terms for vomit. These include “technicolor yawn,” “talking to the toilet,” “round-trip meal ticket,” and “singing lunch.” It is illegal to employ the aboriginal inhabitants as anything but toilets, and some of the peculiar forms of native wildlife have up to nine assholes. The recent destruction of Darwin by a hurricane was actually a cover story for the regrettable coincidence of paydays on three separate sheep stations. > > **Good Points:** Amusing zoos. > > **Proper Forms of Address:** _Steady there, Cool off, For Christ’s sake, not in the sink, Stay back, I’ve got a gun!_ > > **An Anecdote Illustrating Something of the Australian Character:** > An Australian fellow asks his girl friend to fight, but she says she doesn’t want to because she isn’t feeling well. > “Whattaya mean, not feeling well,” he says. > “You know,” she says, “I’ve got my time of the month.” > “Whattaya mean, time of the month,” he says. > “You know,” she says, “I’ve got my period.” > “Whattaya mean, period,” he says. > “You know,” she says, “I’m bleeding down here.” And she opens up her pants to show him. > “Jesus,” he says, “no wonder you’re bleeding! They’ve gone and cut your cock off!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/44 "2014-03-27T01:42:31Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > My point is that Knight is an office that someone holds. It’s right there in black and white. 😕 From [_The Devil’s Dictionary,_](http://www.thedevilsdictionary.com/) by Ambrose Bierce: > [@](#): > > KNIGHT, \*n. > > Once a warrior gentle of birth, > Then a person of civic worth, > Now a fellow to move our mirth. > Warrior, person, and fellow — no more: > We must knight our dogs to get any lower. > Brave Knights Kennelers then shall be, > Noble Knights of the Golden Flea, > Knights of the Order of St. Steboy, > Knights of St. Gorge and Sir Knights Jawy. > God speed the day when this knighting fad > Shall go to the dogs and the dogs go mad.\* ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/45 "2014-03-27T01:58:54Z")
I think perhaps you should refrain from posting while drunk. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/46 "2014-03-27T02:04:46Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Knight\* is\* an office that someone holds. A knighthood is an honour, not an office. It has no duties, no rights, no functions, no role - none of the attributes that would justify calling it an “office”. > [@Blake](#): > > Can you provide evidence for this claim that the \*only \*requirement for these knighthoods is that “the politically powerful wish him to have a title to distinguish him from the hoi-polloi”. This is kind of a slam-dunk. All you need to become a knight is that the Prime Minister should advise the queen to knight you, and the only consequence of being knighted is that you acquire a title which distinguishes you from people who haven’t been knighted. Is there any part of that for which you require “evidence”? > [@Blake](#): > > In a free society, what is the practical difference between “required by convention” and “Not required in any way at all”? > The difference is exactly as you have stated it. These two things are only the same if you think that “convention” = “nothing”, which is not the view taken by most English speakers. > [@Blake](#): > > But all honours are titles by that standard. So you are now saying that you object to all honours. No, they’re not. I work with someone who holds an honour (an AM, to be precise) but this has no implications for how he is addressed or referred to, either formally or informally. I call him Fforename]. If I knew him less well I would call him Mr. [Surname]. And in writing I refer to him as [Forename] [Surname]. All of which is exactly the same as if he had no honour. > [@Blake](#): > > Do you also believe that French Knighthoods also evoked the worst aspects of the British class system? If not, then why would Australian Knighthoods evoke such a thing? Because they’re patterned on British knighthoods and intended to resemble them. Had you not noticed that? > [@Blake](#): > > You really do seem very confused on this issue. You claim not to object to honours generally, but then you claim that you object to any honour that bestows a title, which is all of them. You think that knighthoods are offices and that all honours confer a title, and I’m the one who’s confused? > [@Blake](#): > > You claim that Australian Knighthoods evoke he worst aspects of the British class system, but you can’t seem to explain why it does this more than nay other honours. Having asked me to explain why I thought this, you should at least have waited for my answer before asserting that I had no answer. Your slip is showing, Blake; you seem to be approaching this conversation burdened by a degree of prejudice and preconception. > [@Blake](#): > > You claim that people will be required to refer to a knight as sir, but then acknowledge that the acknowledgement is only socially required, and if anybody decides not to their will be no penalty. > > Can you point to a single practical effect that this will have on anybody at all aside from the person being awarded? Will anybody be required to utter a single word they don’t want to, for example? > > Because at this point I can not see a single way in which this differs from slightly higher level AC. Can you actually explain what the difference is? Nitpick: The AC is a lower level than the AK/AD. As to how this differs, is that not obvious? There is no convention, expectation or social requirement that I should address an AC differently from the way I address someone who holds no honour at all; there is such a convention, expectation or social requirement in the case of an AK or an AD. And I think conferring an honour which people are expected routinely and repeatedly to acknowledge in speech to, or about, the person so honoured is significantly different from conferring an honour with no such characteristic. And, as I said at the outset, I think most people in Australia will consider is risible; repeatedly calling attention to your achievements purely for the sake of having them acknowledged even in contexts where they are not especially relevant would normally be regarded as a character defect in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/47 "2014-03-27T02:18:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, does any other Commonwealth government but the UK’s grant knighthoods or baronetcies or peerages at present? I know that [Kyle is a Knight in Canada,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Pudding) but that’s rather a special case. Yes, the governments of quite a few Commonwealth realms advise the Queen to knight people from time to time. Apart from Canada and Australia, though, I don’t think any of them have established local orders of knighthood; appointments are still made to one of the Imperial orders. For example, Julian Hunt, former foreign minister of St Lucia and now that country’s Permanent Representative to the UN, was knighted earlier this year in the Order of St. Michael and St. George. This would have been conferred on the advice of the St Lucian government, not the UK government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/48 "2014-03-27T04:28:04Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I think perhaps you should refrain from posting while drunk. :eek: That would be shockingly and indecently un-Australian! ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/49 "2014-03-27T05:26:45Z")
From an Asian’s standpoint, no. A citizenship will do. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/50 "2014-03-27T05:49:17Z")
Australia? Knighthoods? Seriously, who gives a fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/51 "2014-03-27T05:59:00Z")
Seeing as Abbott [denied having plans to do this](http://archive.is/jYavH): > [@](#): > > In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Abbott said he did not support the idea, which would involve converting the Companion of the Order of Australia (AC) to Knighthoods or reintroducing a new regal honour. I don’t think there is any harm in finding out what changed since December of last year. ---
**Author:** ![Echo\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Echo\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Echo_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/52 "2014-03-27T10:31:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :eek: That would be shockingly and indecently un-Australian! Have you ever been to Australia? Let’s put to rest the rather tiresome idea that Australians are particularly exceptional in their consumption of alcohol. [WHO](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption)’s data shows Australia ranks 45th in the list of booziest countries. Australia’s per capita consumption of pure ethyl alcohol is around 10L yearly, not far above the US at 9.4L. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/53 "2014-03-27T13:52:20Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > From an Asian’s standpoint, no. A citizenship will do. 😃 Is that an issue in Australia? Is it hard to get naturalized? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/54 "2014-03-27T13:53:22Z")
> [@Echo\_Charlie](#): > > Have you ever been to Australia? Let’s put to rest the rather tiresome idea that Australians are particularly exceptional in their consumption of alcohol. [WHO](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption)’s data shows Australia ranks 45th in the list of booziest countries. Australia’s per capita consumption of pure ethyl alcohol is around 10L yearly, not far above the US at 9.4L. What about the stereotype that every form of Australian wildlife is trying to kill you? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/55 "2014-03-27T14:35:53Z")
“Sharks, jellyfish, swimming knives, they’re all in there” - Dylan Moran ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/56 "2014-03-28T00:44:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is that an issue in Australia? Is it hard to get naturalized? No. It’s hard to get permanent residence. Moving from permanent resident status to citizen status is straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/57 "2014-03-28T01:00:22Z")
Awarding knighthoods in Australia shows a great lack of imagination. Perhaps they might come up with a system of honours that reflects the positive elements of the Australian character rather than borrowing this feudal throwback. Best Mate of the Outback Member of the The Order of Surfers and Lifeguards Most Excellent Sheep Shearer Member of the No Worries Order of Casual Optimism and an award for those Britons who found contentment in the land Downunder. The Grand Order of the Non-whinging Pom: and one for the business community: The Grand Order of Ned Kelly Of course long standing heritage does have a part to play and anyone who descended from the convicts originally sentenced to transportation to the Australian Botany Bay penal colony deserves the right to wear a special costume. With a symbolic ball and chain for anyone whose descendents was actually sentenced for stealing a sheep from an English Lord.😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/58 "2014-03-28T01:42:59Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Of course long standing heritage does have a part to play and anyone who descended from the convicts originally sentenced to transportation to the Australian Botany Bay penal colony deserves the right to wear a special costume. > > With a symbolic ball and chain for anyone whose descendents was actually sentenced for stealing a sheep from an English Lord.😃 [Was your Grandma a whore? Was your grandpa a thief? Were they forgers and grafters who fell to their grief? If you’re born of Australia, I know who ya be: You’re the son of a son of a scoundrel like me!](http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/sonofasc.htm) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/59 "2014-03-28T02:39:27Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yes, the governments of quite a few Commonwealth realms advise the Queen to knight people from time to time. > > Apart from Canada and Australia, though,… [Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_honours_system) doesn’t have local knighthoods, and hasn’t recommended locals for Imperial knighthoods since 1919. It also frowns on the UK giving titular honours to Canadian citizens. Canadian [provinces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_Canadian_provinces) also have their own honours and Nova Scotia also has it’s own [baronetage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baronetage_of_Nova_Scotia#Baronetage_of_Nova_Scotia_.281625.E2.80.931706.29) (thought I doubt most ever set foot in, let alone lived in NS). As mentioned upthread [New Zealan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_New_Zealand) has it’s own honours system. Just like in Australia knighthoods & damehoods were originally included, then abolished\*, then reinstated. New Zealand has also reinstated the rank of [Queen’s Counsel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens_Counsel#Today) after briefly replacing it with Senior Counsel, and it looks like the same thing’s happening in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574/60 "2014-03-28T03:10:10Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > What “system of honors” has the US introduced? > > [A very large number](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government) of them. Naaah, those are no fun as it is (and it’s not a true “system of honours” in that it lacks _system_; the PMF is “America’s highest civilian honor” 'cause someone said so, but how do the other ones rank vs. one another?). Ya need to work 'em into something where you append a bunch of letters at the end of the name, y’know, so people can sign their name as _“Rita Moreno, PMF, NMA”_; and a list of precedence ranks within the individual civilian awards like, say, “Excellent Dude/Dude/Wingman of the Congressional Gold Medal”.🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-australia-award-knighthoods/684574.md?page=4)