# Should Britain leave the European Union? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708 "2011-12-10T05:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/62 "2011-12-14T08:45:10Z")
I see all this late political dancing around co-operation as part of the “whose tax-payers bail the banks out” game. Greece won’t pay all it’s debt back and thus the money to “support” it is to support the banks who gave the money. German banks have a lot of money in there so Germany is for the co-operation. Brit dopers don’t seem to be interested in this at all. Is it because the Brit banks have little money in Greece or because they are in good shape and can survive un-bailed? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/63 "2011-12-14T11:40:15Z")
British banks have _relatively_ little exposure to bad PIIGS debt when compared to German or French banks. For instance, Italy owes French banks more than the entire PIIGS debt to the UK. All this dawdling over how to sort out the mess is a game between the French who want to insure their bankers as much as possible against losses, and the Germans who want private lenders to take a haircut on their bad loans. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/64 "2011-12-14T12:53:39Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > British banks have _relatively_ little exposure to bad PIIGS debt when compared to German or French banks. For instance, Italy owes French banks more than the entire PIIGS debt to the UK. All this dawdling over how to sort out the mess is a game between the French who want to insure their bankers as much as possible against losses, and the Germans who want private lenders to take a haircut on their bad loans. Britain is the country most heavily exposed to Irish debt. It’s a moot question anyway because if the boat sinks then everybody will go down with. Whether they be on 1st or 3rd class, or not on the boat at all like Britain pretends not to be. And for all the current problems, it should not be forgotten that the EU has been immensely successful on a number of issues. Notable, the Single Market and the Schengen agreement (which Britain is not member of to their loss), some science programs, some of the regional support funds, some of the democratization progress in Eastern Europe + Turkey. And in general if Europe wish to have any noticeable influence on the world stage in the future it has to go through the EU. If the EU institutions and parliament just wasn’t so goddamn corrupt and inefficient and undemocratic. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/65 "2011-12-14T12:58:23Z")
Yes, I know Britain is more exposed to Irish debt than others. French and German banks, on the other hand, are more exposed to Spanish, Portuguese, Greek and Italian debts than British banks are. Irish debt is also nowhere near as large as the debts of Italy. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/66 "2011-12-14T13:18:29Z")
As I see it, you can’t separate the countries like that. Either we can save them, or they all go, maybe with Greece as the only possible exception. And I think the only possible way is through sticking together and reducing the debts by fixing the economies, because it doesn’t matter whether you have the Euro or your own currency when all your banks go in default, and having your own currency doesn’t help one iota in getting rid of foreign debt. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/67 "2011-12-14T17:29:50Z")
Don’t be so sure of that. It is a scenario that no-one really knows the outcome. If currencies start sliding then there will be a scramble for safe havens, in factt hat pressure for a safe haven could even force Germany to reissue the Deutshmarck, but Sterling would be one of the more obvious choices, along with the Dollar and the Yen. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/68 "2011-12-14T17:32:24Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > If the EU institutions and parliament just wasn’t so goddamn corrupt and inefficient and undemocratic. Despite your boosterism, Rune, saying it’s _corrupt, inefficient, and undemocratic_ pretty much covers everything! I could make the same damn arguement about the Soviet Union, or hell, North Korea today. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/69 "2011-12-14T18:01:34Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is all too confusing. > > Why does there have to be full consensus on economic measures? If, for example, 9/10 of countries want to form an economic pact together what does that have to with other EU pacts? I guess what I’m saying is that the freedom to form coalitions or partnerships among EU countries ought to be encouraged. > > Also, why not just use our system instead? Hear me out. The U.S sheds money to the States every year in [federal aid](http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/fas-10.pdf) for transportation, education, health, etc etc. Does the EU have a mechanism similar to that? Collect taxes, give money to member States based on need. It’s not exactly fair that Alaska gets twice as much aid as California but it does ensure that States aren’t on the verge of economic collapse every half-decade. > > - Honesty Both Californians and Alaskans think of themselves as Americans and are OK with that. If the prevailing attitude in California was that those filth Alaskans are taking our jobs and living off ill gotten welfare so fuck those blubber eating assholes, then it wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/70 "2011-12-14T22:52:11Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is all too confusing. > > Why does there have to be full consensus on economic measures? If, for example, 9/10 of countries want to form an economic pact together what does that have to with other EU pacts? I guess what I’m saying is that the freedom to form coalitions or partnerships among EU countries ought to be encouraged. > > Also, why not just use our system instead? Hear me out. The U.S sheds money to the States every year in [federal aid](http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/fas-10.pdf) for transportation, education, health, etc etc. Does the EU have a mechanism similar to that? Collect taxes, give money to member States based on need. It’s not exactly fair that Alaska gets twice as much aid as California but it does ensure that States aren’t on the verge of economic collapse every half-decade. > > - Honesty The EU cannot collect taxes. They’ve wanted to for years. But frankly, they haven’t yet showed that they are up to the job. Most of the EU redistribution funds go to farmers. France is the biggest receiver. The EU has some development funds that mostly go to poorer countries. Spain and Greece have received billions every year for the last many years. Everywhere in Spain and Greece you see signs that this and that piece of infrastructure has been build for EU money. But it is worthwhile to note that the countries that are in the shitter are not generally the poorer countries. Italy is even one of the richest. Even Greece is considerable richer (even excluding the black economy) than many of the East-European countries. If there was a fixed redistribution scheme set up to help poorer countries Greece, Italy, Spain and Ireland would have to send billions of euros to Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, the Baltics etc. Now it’s the other way round: Slovakia, Slovenia and Estonia – all of them poorer than Greece, Slovakia almost by half, are forced to contribute to the bail out funds to help the richer PIIGS. They are understandable not thrilled. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/71 "2011-12-16T23:04:22Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > [The EU can’t kick a member out outright.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union#Suspension) If the EU started suspension measures on the UK for use of a veto it would fall apart faster than a leper in a wind tunnel. I like that saying and I’m going to steal it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708/72 "2011-12-17T00:24:55Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Despite your boosterism, Rune, saying it’s _corrupt, inefficient, and undemocratic_ pretty much covers everything! I could make the same damn arguement about the Soviet Union, or hell, North Korea today. It is simply absurd and ridiculous to compare EU to Soviet Union. I know a certain class of Americans seem convinced that EU is soviet, but it is ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-britain-leave-the-european-union/605708.md?page=3)