From my, (admittedly small) sample of German colleagues and friends I get the feeling that such “bailing out” is not popular. I sense a lot of resistance to an open German wallet and I don’t really see how these latest moves will limit Germany’s exposure. The core problem of multi-speed economies is not fixed and further shocks are likely.
It’s corrupt, wasteful and mostly spends its time inventing new laws on the shape of cucumbers or other more stupid things. But most of all, it is corrupt.
Why does it need to be EU-wide? Why should the countries who avoided joining the euro be made to pay to prop it up? (and, in fact, Britain has put up money to support distressed euro zone countries).
Britain is one of the more obedient EU countries, in terms of implementing EU laws. Compare to France under Chirac. Compare to the Stability and Growth Pact, which Germany, France and others blithely ignored in the early days of the euro. But somehow, when it comes to a crisis, we’re the convenient villains.
Corrupt? Why would an entity of such limited power be a bribe-magnet anyway?
It actually has rather wide-ranging powers. Most of the legislation made in the national parliaments are made directly to implement legislation voted through in the EU parliament. But it’s not so much in the politics that corruption is endemic (although it is so also here, as several scandals have shown) but in the way they squander the funds entrusted to them and the way they refuse any oversight or openness – even fire the people supposed to go through the books, when they report the corruption. The bureaucracy of the EU is closer to the Greek ideal than the Scandinavian.
Please no more of the cucumber complaints. It’s bogus. Cucumber traders asked the EU to set a standard measurement for cucumbers, so that selling “class A” cucumbers means the same everywhere. I think the advantages are obvious. Everyone is happy with the cucumber classifying system.
I think you have a very good point. I would’ve vetoed the thing too.
We can be reasonably sure that Greece lied, or at least severely distorted its economic figures to an extent that it was dishonest - thats very mild considering what has happened. This is only the most extreme example of what others were also doing, Italy, Spain and Ireland were all doing it to some extent.
Despite all the talk of having more financial discipline, it will not happen, there will be other ways to be devious. The only reason that the most errant nations are going along with it is that they have to, for now. When it comes to election time again though you can bet it will all change.
UK is sick of implementing EU directives that others seem to find ways of simply ignoring - we could look at animal husbandry - yet again much of the EU has found ways of delaying these measures whilst the UK has done it in full, this includes pig farming, hen battery farming anf there are others. This has resulted in our produce being more expensive is to the advantage of the laggards.
You may be astounded to know that EU emigres can come to the UK and claim UK benefits despite never having contributed.
I am no great fan of the short termism outlook of the markets in London but the if nations spend much more than they can ever hope to pay back the blame does not lie with the City markets at all. I have little doubt that those markets have not helped but the responsibility for what has happend to the Euro lies in irresponsible governments spending to please their electorates and others who were simplly too naiive to look under the hood and find out was was really going on.
The problem with the proposed new EU financial system is exactly the same as the one that has just collapsed, that of reporting back acurrately. This just will not happen, meantime there has been little acknowlegement of the UK support for insitutions that were buying up the Euro bonds and yet these banks are highly exposed. They were robustly encouraged to to this and now its all seems to be their fault, according to the Eurocrats.
The UK is heavily exposed in loan guaruntees - to such an extent that we cannot walk away. The process of economic reform will take far too long for the situation in hand.
I was a great fan of UK joining the Euro, but it seems clear that its a bad idea because the Eurodream of a united currency ultimately means power must be removed from national goverments. We do not have any proposal to ensure that there is any elected accountability for this united fiscal policy. I have had to eat my words on the Euro.
I simply cannot see it working in the longer run, not whilst it allows wasters to join on an idealist little platform of unity instead of a hard nosed accountable and enforceable set of rules - we’ve seen for decades what various EU nations have thought about rules, fine for the UK fo follow but not for others.
The French haven’t collaborated with the Germans so closely since 1940 .
Finally. Who didn’t see that coming?
Well, almost everybody.
OK, now let’s hear from some Brits who defend the EU. Anybody?
And why is Britain always the odd-man-out in European stuff anyway? “FOG IN CHANNEL – CONTINENT CUT OFF,” and all of that . . . There even seems to be an unstated assumption, sometimes, that “Europe” means something foreign, something that does not include the “offshore islanders” of the UK, who constitute a completely different civilization. Which is nonsense – culturally as well as geographically, Britain is at least as much a part of Europe as Japan is a part of Asia. Japan, in fact, has a far greater claim than Britain will ever have, to be some kind of unique stand-alone national civilization.
In history courses in university (30 yrs ago) we were taught that Britain/UK/England (depending on how far back in history etc) deliberately maintained that position and would choose alliances in continental conflicts depending on how much power (ultimately threatening to Britain) a dominant continental power would accrue as a result of the conflict.
I have been wondering if that mentality is still ingrained in the UK to some extent.
My thought on this (I’m Canadian) is that, in the long term, unification is the right thing to do but these things don’t happen easily. I also have had Greek relatives, by marriage, and I know that they will do what they can to avoid paying taxes. Unfortunately, having what appears to be an enviable quality of life is not cheap and now they’re stuck with the bill.
I’m not convinced that Britain is as isolated as is being made out in the pro-Euro press in the UK. Denmark, Sweden and Hungary have to all consult their respective parliaments before they agree to any treaty (besides, isn’t this new treaty just an agreement to make yet another treaty next year?). I can live with Britain aligning itself more closely with the likes of Sweden and Denmark within the EU.
Further, I’ve got to ask myself here who really has isolated themselves within Europe: Britain or Germany? Look at the confederation of dunces that Germany has surrounded itself with: virtual failed states like Greece and Italy, along with protectionist France. Aside from Germany, the next largest European states in the new alignment are virtually poverty stricken, unable to manage themselves, or share markedly different economic philosophies to Germany and the likes of the Netherlands. Already Sarkozy has been making noises about how “Europe should not be an economic dupe” and be ready to use “protectionist policies” — talk that died out in the UK somewhere in the early eighteenth century. By allowing Britain to be pushed out of the agreement over something as moronic as a Tobin tax (seriously — did we not learn anything from what happened in Sweden?) the balance of power has now shifted away from the North of Europe towards the southern, statist nations.
Finally: what does this new treaty (or agreement to form a new treaty) actually achieve? As far as I’m aware, it’s just the Eurozone’s stability pact writ large. Yet this does nothing to address the question of what the hell will be happening with the bonds of countries like Italy and Spain. It achieves nothing of any use whatsoever. Look at what happened in the French and Italian markets upon announcement of this new agreement: a virtual massacre.
We aren’t always the odd-man out in Europe. We participate remarkably fully in Europe. We’re the second largest net contributor of funds that keeps the EU running after Germany. We implement European court rulings pretty well, unlike many on the Continent. We’re active supporters of many European intiatives, such as the Single European Sky, and push our own ideas, like a free market for services. We just don’t go along with whatever stupid shit gets suggested by Brussels blindly, like idiotic military integration projects, or single currencies across a continent that is nowhere close to being an ideal currency area.
Down at the level of ordinary people, who are not very interested EU politicking, Britons are surely very well integrated into Europe. We’re a nation of Francophiles, for a start. Go to France in summer, or indeed any time. The place is crawling with Brits, many of whom live there. I think that overall, the “trade zone” aspect of the EU has been a good thing. It’s easier to move around Europe, easier to trade, all that. It’s just the “ever closer union” thing that many of us eye with suspicion. Why “ever closer”? Why not stop where we are? It was working fine.
So what is an ideal currency area?
This article presents the requirements. By such standards it is clear Euro zone is not a good currency area.
I think people would be much less confused about how and why the UK does things if they would take the time to watch a theoretically fictional TV series called ‘Yes, Minister’ and its sequel series, ‘Yes, Prime Minister’.
I believe the term is ‘ha ha only serious’. Plus, it’s a darn funny series, except for when you get overwhelmed with a growing sense of doom for all humanity.