# should cameras should be banned as tools of terrorism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025 "2002-12-06T21:36:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/1 "2002-12-06T21:36:14Z")
[http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1206.html](http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1206.html) > [@](#): > > After the photographer Mike Maginnis took his pictures in downtown Denver near Cheney’s hotel, a cop confronted him. He demanded Maginnis hand over not only his film, but also his camera. When he refused, Maginnis was thrown down on the pavement and arrested. He was taken to the police station and locked in an interrogation room for two hours. Finally an SS agent arrived and told Maginnis that his “suspicious activities” made him a threat to national security, and that he would be charged as a terrorist under the USA-Patriot Act. The debate here is, what activities/behavior that are not illegal are nonetheless so suspicious that a person should be suspected of terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/2 "2002-12-06T22:39:34Z")
Just a few days ago I was walking on 9th St in DC and a couple of young tourists were being detained and questioned very closely for taking pictures of the FBI building. Yep, it seems taking pictures of goverment buildings makes you a suspect. It is silly to risk being detained when you can just buy postcards or download photos from the Net. I was staying in a nearby building, top floor, and our terrace looked right across to the FBI building. I vnever saw anyone in the FB building but I _never_ dared go out on the terrace and take a photo of the FBI building just in case. I did take some nice pix from the old post office tower though. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/3 "2002-12-06T23:10:31Z")
I don’t mean to troll, but I can’t help but wondering. With Homeland security and this as an example - is the US turning into a Police State? ---
**Author:** ![Superspy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Superspy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superspy)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/4 "2002-12-06T23:57:47Z")
HAHAHA… Is the US turning into a police state? I think that it is quite obvious that the US has been a police state for some time now, although the government is very good at hiding it. I suggest some reading on the Echelon system, a worldwide monitoring system that the United States heads. Duncan Campbell has done some excellent investigative reporting on the matter. [http://duncan.gn.apc.org/echelon-dc.htm](http://duncan.gn.apc.org/echelon-dc.htm) And then there is the European Union Parliament’s address of the matter: [http://www.aci.net/kalliste/echelon/ic2000.htm](http://www.aci.net/kalliste/echelon/ic2000.htm) Things have gotten out of hand. American citizens aren’t even allowed to take pictures of anymore. Cause for concern in my book… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/5 "2002-12-07T00:03:14Z")
Hmm…an anecdotal story sensationalized by some reporter and you want to compare the US to Nazi Germany or communist USSR. Buddy, get a life. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Superspy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Superspy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superspy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/6 "2002-12-07T00:08:12Z")
police state n. A state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force. The words rigid and oppressive may be a bit harsh when talking about the current control of the government of the United States, but the NSA certainly acts as a secret police for the country. This is certainly just my opinion, just as everyone is entitled to have theirs. I am not a doomsayer who pretends that Big Brother is out there watching us at all times, but I believe that America is not what it claims to be…a land of freedom and justice. ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/7 "2002-12-07T18:38:31Z")
Something tells me a “Hacker Quarterly” isn’t that reputable of a source. I did a Google search on this photographer, and the only hits based on this incident are copy-pasted from the 2600 site or their only source is the site itself. Why hasn’t he talked to the Denver Post since he tried to call them when he was arrested? ---
**Author:** ![Superspy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Superspy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superspy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/8 "2002-12-07T19:15:44Z")
I agree that the source probably is biased and most likely was not the best backing for my argument. But if you are trying to say that Echelon does not exist, I hope you will read this. [http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/0414f.html#item8](http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/0414f.html#item8) It’s an article from the Wall Street Journal so I would assume that it would be considered a reputable source. The listing here is only a summary of the article though, unfortunately I couldn’t find the actual Wall Street Journal article. However I just recently wrote a paper which required the article…and I accessed the microfilm at the campus library, so I can at least confirm that the article exists 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/9 "2002-12-07T23:52:44Z")
No, I’d heard of Echelon. I think I remember reading about it in _Rogue State_ by William Blum. If not, it’s probably mentioned in _Derailing Democracy_ by David McGowan. I just hope some major media catches wind of Maginnis’s arrest (or “arrest,” as the case may be), so that we get some investigation into what really happened and it isn’t just his word against the cops’. The way it is right now I’m not sure whether or not anyone should believe his story. ---
**Author:** ![Pythagras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@Pythagras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagras)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/10 "2002-12-08T00:58:28Z")
We dont need to ban cameras, we need to ban people – the real tools of terrorism! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/11 "2002-12-08T15:52:12Z")
That’s right **Pythagras**! Cameras don’t take pictures, people take pictures. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/12 "2002-12-08T16:15:47Z")
But with no flim in them? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/13 "2002-12-08T16:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Superspy \* > **I suggest some reading on the Echelon system, a worldwide monitoring system that the United States heads.** Cecil Adams’s article on the Echelon system: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010720.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010720.html) In my opinion, as scary as something like Echelon is, it’s not as scary as [**Carnivore**](http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/carnivore/carnivore.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/14 "2002-12-10T22:48:32Z")
The original publication that printed the story has an update: [http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1455](http://www.2600.com/news/display/display.shtml?id=1455) This bothers me. If the man was outraged enough to talk to _any_ kind of press he should speak up to someone else. Horrors upon horrors, “even his parents are getting calls from reporters”! Just answer the questions and move on, people! He took the first step by reporting this incident, if it indeed occurred. If his story is true he needs to take a deep breath and make sure that something like this doesn’t happen again. Mike Maginnis is in a unique position to prevent further injustices, and if it takes talking to some people from the Denver Post, so be it. Two months ago my school newspapers were confiscated by the superintendent, and my family and I were called by reporters for several days…it’s not that hard to deal with. They’re just people who want a story, and if you give it to them, you help prevent similar problems in the future. If Maginnis is telling the truth, it will undoubtedly lead to massive editorializing throughout the nation’s press and law enforcement will not be willing to make the same mistake and abridge people’s rights in the same manner. It seems to me like his silence is an admission of guilt, but if so, he should just come out and say it instead of hiding behind lousy excuses. [/rant] ---
**Author:** ![foolishmortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f1d935/32.png) [@foolishmortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolishmortal)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/15 "2002-12-10T23:26:06Z")
Actually, the US has had in the past one of the most open and democratic societies in the world. Authorities needed to demonstrate probable cause to perform surveillance, and the press was very free (e.g. Pentagon Papers) (compare to the UK press). However, since 9/11 we seem to be engaged in a nation-wide effort to demonstrate how American we are by handing over our civil liberties. Since the Patriot Act took effect, the authorities need only claim that an individual being surveilled might be involved in terrorism. No evidence is required, and this claim is not subject to judicial review. The really scary thing is the Total Information Awareness (TIA) system. This is a proposed Department of Defense project consisting of a database of /all/ public and private information about /everyone/. Information to be recorded: -Every phone call you make -Your medical records -Every email you send -Every library book you check out -Every book you buy -Anything you buy with a credit card Etc… If a bookstore owner’s records are seized the Patriot Act makes it a crime for him to tell anyone about it. So who knows, they might already be checking up… Pay cash! -ehj p.s. The best cite for this is a London Times article of about four weeks ago (a good ten days before I saw anything in the US press). Unfortunately, they charge for old articles and all the US papers sugar-coat the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-cameras-should-be-banned-as-tools-of-terrorism/141025/16 "2002-12-11T16:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Just a few days ago I was walking on 9th St in DC and a couple of young tourists were being detained and questioned very closely for taking pictures of the FBI building. Yep, it seems taking pictures of goverment buildings makes you a suspect. > > \*\* If taking pictures of the FBI admin buildings is dangerous to national security, then fine, make it illegal. As long as it’s legal, though, under what authority do the D.C. cops get off arresting people for taking snapshots? This is positively Soviet. When I was in the USSR in 1989, it was illegal to take pictures of any port, military base or personnel, airport, or a bunch of other categories of strategically important things. At least the Soviets had the decency to inform us of this upfront, though. (I do confess that I shot a couple of photos of an Estonian fishing pier, though, which I suppose was a technical violation. Anyone wanna turn me in to the Estonian KGB?)