# Should Canadians be "treated like criminals" at the US border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704 "2002-10-31T14:14:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/1 "2002-10-31T14:14:39Z")
This [article](http://www.canada.com/national/story.asp?id=%7B06484F3A-4E4E-4080-9DE0-14D5737D5E3E%7D) complains about the humiliation of some Canadian citizens when crossing the US border. It certainly sounds like gross and improper overreaction by the INS. > [@](#): > > Ottawa residents Tahereh Shahparaki and her husband were made to pose for mug shots, have their fingerprints taken, and provide detailed personal information under interrogation by armed officers. > > Their crime, according to a new U.S. law? Being born in Iran… > > “Humiliated and angry,” they thought of turning back home in disgust, Ms. Shahparaki said yesterday, but wanted to see her daughter and help her settle in her new home. So they endured the process, introduced as an anti-terrorism measure by the U.S. government . > > [Ms. Shahparaki] said the questions asked by the Immigration and Naturalization Service officers were personal, strange, even irrelevant. “I had no choice but to answer them because that’s part of their new procedure,” Ms. Shahparaki said. > > What is your address? When and where were you born? Where do you work? What is your telephone number? What is your business here? Where are you going? For how long? What are your parents’ names? What are your parents’ birthdates? What did they do?.. > > Calling the system discriminatory, the Foreign Affairs department has issued an unusual travel advisory urging Canadian citizens born in countries targeted by U.S. anti-terrorism policies to think twice about visiting the U.S. OTOH [this article](http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=%7B0CD0FB97-29DE-4653-9FB7-E0BB272D79D8%7D) says that the terrorist group Hezbollah has been using Canada as a base for a decade. So, maybe the US is taking appropriate precautions against visitors from Canada who might be Hezbollah members. One could argue that it’s unfortunate that the many non-terrorist Canadian Arabs pay a price in terms of tightened, burdensome procedures, but that the procedures are necessary. > [@](#): > > The Canadian Security Intelligence Service documents detail how Hezbollah has laundered tens of thousands of dollars through Canadian banks while drawing on the accounts to shop for military equipment. > > Hezbollah agents shopped for blasting devices, night-vision goggles, powerful computers and camera equipment used to record attacks against Israeli forces, according to dozens of CSIS wiretaps obtained yesterday… > > Even as they lived in Canada with their families as immigrants the Hezbollah operatives apparently remained disdainful of their new surroundings, denouncing “the Canadians and the Zionists” in a wiretapped conversation. > > Hezbollah is a radical Shiite group formed in Lebanon in 1982 that is funded by Iran and Syria. It is responsible for kidnappings, hostage takings and bombings that killed hundreds of Americans in the early 1980s… > > Mr. Chrétien declined to condemn Hezbollah after he attended an event at the francophone summit in Beirut two weeks ago that was also attended by the group’s leader… > > Two of the alleged Canadian agents, Lebanese immigrants identified as Mr. Dbouk and his brother-in-law Mr. Amhaz, shopped at a “military supply warehouse and looked at some military supplies and instruments in Vancouver.” Mr. Dbouk inquired at one company about buying “any equipment used to blow up rocks.”… > > The extent of Hezbollah operations in Canada first came to light in the 1990s when an agent named Mohammed Hussein al-Husseini was arrested for deportation. He told CSIS about a vast cross-Canada network. So, is the INS right or wrong to treat these visitors this way? Also, why doesn’t Canada do something about the Hezbollah activities there? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/2 "2002-10-31T14:25:45Z")
its the democrats fault. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/3 "2002-10-31T14:25:55Z")
Canada does as much about Hezbollah activities as the US does. The reason it’s not easy to do is that Canada, like the United States, is a free country with restrictions on what the government can and can’t do to intrude on personal liberty. This is part of the problem of being a free and open democracy. Americans should know all about it, seeing as how all the 9/11 terrorists operated freely in the U.S., some for years. As to this issue, I am of two midns about it. On one hand, Canadians and Americans do not have a RIGHT to cross into the other country. They’re sovereign nations. If one country or the other wants to do this sort of thing they are entitled to do so. And the U.S. currently has legitimate fears about terrorists from Middle Eastern countries. On the other hand, you have to wonder if the INS and the federal government of the USA are acting with any sort of logic or common sense. I find it amusing that they’ll grill Canadians of Iranian descent, but apparently people right out of Saudi Arabia can just walk right in and head straight to flight school. I mean, they are aware the terrorists so far have mostly been from Saudi Arabia and not Iran, right? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/4 "2002-10-31T14:57:42Z")
INS employees have for years been developing a reputation for being the closest thing to jackbooted thugs this country has. Re: the OP’s questions: > [@](#): > > So, is the INS right or wrong to treat these visitors this way? Also, why doesn’t Canada do something about the Hezbollah activities there? 1. IMO, the INS is right to interrogate persons attempting to enter the US who it suspects may have a connection to terrorism. IMO, the INS is wrong if the suspicion is based on nothing more than the person’s physical appearance or the person’s having once been a citizen of a certain country. 2. Canada apparently IS doing something about Hezbollah activities there, as shown by the fact that they were wiretapping the conversations of Hezbollah members in the first place. Did they commit any crimes that the Canadian government declined to prosecute? Your excerpt doesn’t say. Anyway, I’m sure the OP has his own opinions on these matters and will share them with us presently. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/5 "2002-10-31T16:50:07Z")
What does everyone think about the deportation of syrian born but Canadian [Maher Arar, a 32-year-old Ottawa engineer](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021024/USYRIM/Headlines/headdex/headdexNational_temp/11/11/27/). From that globe&mail article: "Mr. Arar left Syria in 1987, and became a Canadian citizen in 1991. He was returning from a holiday in Tunisia when he was arrested by U.S. immigration authorities while changing flights in New York on Sept. 26. On Oct. 8, U.S. authorities deported the father of two young children for alleged terrorist ties, but his itinerary before ending up in Syria remains murky. Despite official protests, Washington still has not told Ottawa why Mr. Arar, who holds a Canadian passport, was deported to a country other than Canada and the sequence of his travel." The guy has lived in Canada since he was ~15 and they deport him to Syria? While he’s making a connection? All I can say is holy crap. I would recommend the US as a great vacation spot for fans of full-body cavity searches. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/6 "2002-10-31T17:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CarnalK \* > \*\*WThe guy has lived in Canada since he was ~15 and they deport him to Syria? While he’s making a connection? All I can say is holy crap. I would recommend the US as a great vacation spot for fans of full-body cavity searches. \*\* Carnal, did you reasd the whole article? According to the article, the gentleman is a citizen of both Canada AND Syria. He is being questioned by Syrian authorities about connections to terrorism, and the article suggested he has also been in the custody of Jordanian authorities. The U.S. cannot technically be faulted for deporting a Syrian citizen to Syria - even if he is also a citizen of another country. He has access to Canadian counsel in Syria, which he should. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/7 "2002-10-31T17:54:50Z")
Canadians should be treated like criminals for inflicting us with Celine Dion. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/8 "2002-10-31T18:05:50Z")
But Canadians have been afflicted with Barbara Striesand for much much longer. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/9 "2002-10-31T18:33:12Z")
**CarnalK** , you may be interested in this [Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139651) about the case of Maher Arar. **RickJay** , according to **CarnalK** ’s article, Mr. Arar was also “deported” to Jordan, where he never was a citizen. And yes, he _finally_ has counsel, although that took damn near a month (his flight was on September 26), during which the INS refused to tell anyone where Mr. Arar was, neither his family nor the Canadian government. I am bloody well going to fault the INS for that. And how the heck do you deport someone who hasn’t entered your country yet anyway? If they were so worried about his possible connections to terrorism, why didn’t they just _deny him entry_ and send him back to Tunisia? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/10 "2002-10-31T18:58:28Z")
Yeah, if you check out the Pit thread, you’ll see some info on dual citizenship. I keep hoping that some passing international lawyer will drop by and post info on the international legal consequences of deporting someone to a country where he may be persecuted, whether or not that country still considers him a citizen. I work with INS every day (I’m an immigration paralegal), and it never ceases to amaze me how ridiculous certain people in that organization can be. I certainly see their point that just because someone is a Canadian citizen, that doesn’t make him/her immune to being a terrorist. But why can’t this country seem to come up with more intelligent terrorist screening criteria than the place a person was born or their physical appearance, especially if they were raised somewhere with whom we generally have an excellent relationship? IMHO they should put more resources into real intelligence work, rather than this kind of stupidity which can be easily circumvented anyway by anyone with two synapses to rub together. I look rather Middle Eastern myself (I’m Jewish and born in NJ, as were both my parents), and anyone with half a brain can figure out that I’m not a terrorist, and yet I’ve been searched at least twice on every flight I’ve taken since 9/11 (except, oddly enough, the one international one). However, as Canada has asylum policies that are rather more liberal in some circumstances than the U.S.’ in terms of what types of cases are approved, did the moron inspector ever stop to think that maybe Mr. Arar was LESS likely to agree with the Syrian government than your average Joe on the street if he’d emigrated to Canada? (Does anyone know under what circumstances he emigrated to Canada?) And that in any case, maybe they should consider letting him contact consular representation and straightening out the situation before deciding he was a terrorist and shipping him ANYWHERE, let alone Syria? Couldn’t we have held him briefly while sharing info with Canadian law enforcement/immigration officials, rather than just putting him on the next plane out? The problem with these particular INS morons is that they used no common sense. Many of them do act like jack-booted thugs. Inspector positions don’t pay very much, and so they don’t tend to attract the best and brightest. And INS generally doesn’t hire based on any cultural sensitivity criteria. (My favorite was when I worked at Immigration Court, and INS asked us to order an “Indian interpreter” for a detained person. Never mind how many zillions of languages are spoken in India.) I could go on forever ranting about them, but that’s a whole other thread. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/11 "2002-10-31T19:25:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Ottawa residents Tahereh Shahparaki and her husband were made to pose for mug shots, have their fingerprints taken, and provide detailed personal information under interrogation by armed officers. > > Their crime, according to a new U.S. law? Being born in Iran… > > “Humiliated and angry,” they thought of turning back home in disgust, Ms. Shahparaki said yesterday, but wanted to see her daughter and help her settle in her new home. So they endured the process, introduced as an anti-terrorism measure by the U.S. government . Welp, in 1990, as I was crossing the Canadian border into the U.S., my friend and I were told to leave our car by armed officers, taken into separate rooms, and strip-searched, while all of our possessions were pawed through and left in disarray. 'Course, the Mounties on the way into Canada weren’t much better. They let us keep our clothes on, but recorded our credit card numbers and the amount of cash we had with us (information I really didn’t want anyone to know about). And we wuz white boys from the suburbs. The Customs Service have always been dicks. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/12 "2002-10-31T20:54:06Z")
I firmly believe that blatant discrimination of this nature is the absolute, guaranteed, number one method of producing terrorists. If you single people out for ‘extra’ enforcement measures, and make sure they cannot go anywhere because they fit a particular profile, they will start to resent the behaviour-- especially when they can see other people are not treated in the same manner. Keep it up long enough, and they will fight back-- and you’ll have created the threat that your paranoid fantasies were wanting all along. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/13 "2002-11-01T00:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*Welp, in 1990, as I was crossing the Canadian border into the U.S., my friend and I were told to leave our car by armed officers, taken into separate rooms, and strip-searched, while all of our possessions were pawed through and left in disarray. \*\* That’s what you get for crossing the border on “Take your kid to work” Day. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/14 "2002-11-01T01:30:10Z")
it doesn’t have to do with them being canadians, it has to do with them being foreigners who fit the terrorist profile. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/15 "2002-11-01T02:25:29Z")
Just what, pray, fits a “terrorist profile.” Is it enough to be a Syrian born Canadian resident with Canadian citizenship and a Canadian passport? Or does wearing a beard push it over the line? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/16 "2002-11-01T02:34:25Z")
> [@](#): > > United States has agreed to back off from its controversial policy of fingerprinting and screening Canadian travellers of Arab origin, Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham said today. > > He told the House of Commons he got the news from Paul Cellucci, the U.S. ambassador. > > “He informed me that in the future Canadians carrying Canadian passports will not be treated any differently depending on where they were born or for any reason whatsoever,” the minister said. > > The screening, which went into force in September, demands photos and prints from some foreign visitors born in a specific list of Arab or predominantly Muslim countries… > > Graham warned however that Canadians with dual citizenship travelling on a non-Canadian passport, or Canadians who have travelled in regions deemed suspect by U.S. authorities, may still face increased scrutiny at the border. [http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article\_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035773879384&call\_page=TS\_News&call\_pageid=968332188492&call\_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154](http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035773879384&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/17 "2002-11-01T03:18:09Z")
Since when are Iranians Arabs? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/18 "2002-11-01T03:41:44Z")
The US was attacked by ‘Islamic’ extremists. I see no problem with enacting extra security checks of those who have even the most remote common similarity of those extremists (ie, born in a country that sponsers terrorist groups, such as Iran). I would rather inconvenience an innocent than to have more people killed by more whacko ‘Islamic’ extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/19 "2002-11-01T03:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*Just what, pray, fits a “terrorist profile.” Is it enough to be a Syrian born Canadian resident with Canadian citizenship and a Canadian passport? Or does wearing a beard push it over the line? \*\* Wearing a beard definitely pushes it over the line, but just having dark skin and being of arab descent is more than enough to fit the terrorist profile and warrant extra caution being given upon attempted entry into the US. It is a shame that this profile is so convenient, but that’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704/20 "2002-11-01T05:27:20Z")
Of course, according to all the articles on this, the profiling in question is based on what country you were born in. Guess what country is NOT included in the list? Saudi Arabia. You know, the country the terrorists mostly come from. What comically transparent stupidity. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-canadians-be-treated-like-criminals-at-the-us-border/134704.md?page=2)