# Should Captain America be a founding member of the Avengers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463 "2015-03-20T06:27:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CaptainAmerica\_1987](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@CaptainAmerica\_1987](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptainAmerica_1987)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/1 "2015-03-20T06:27:31Z")
He wasn’t in #1 and appeared in #4 so should/could he be considered a founding member? I mean if you look at the Justice League the founding members were Superman, Batman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter so there is no doubt they are founding members but what about The Avengers and it’s founding members? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/2 "2015-03-20T06:31:22Z")
> [@CaptainAmerica\_1987](#): > > He wasn’t in #1 and appeared in #4 so should/could he be considered a founding member? > > I mean if you look at the Justice League the founding members were Superman, Batman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter so there is no doubt they are founding members but what about The Avengers and it’s founding members? Thanks Well, if you join a brand new Fraternity, for example, you don’t have to be one of the very first people at the very first meeting. You just have to be in the group when the group is officially chartered. BTW… netflix has a couple of Avengers cartoon series on streaming… ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/3 "2015-03-20T08:34:19Z")
Cap is sort of counted as a founder. This came up in the Busiek/Pérez run. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/4 "2015-03-20T10:21:16Z")
He should, in the same sense that George Washington is considered a Founding Father. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/5 "2015-03-20T14:42:52Z")
He’s a founding member in the sense that, while not one of the very first group to call themselves the Avengers, he hung with that group, and was the only one who stayed when the first major cast change occurred. If it hadn’t been for Cap staying on, the Avengers would have disbanded, and then, well, anybody remember the Champions? ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/6 "2015-03-20T14:58:53Z")
Yeah, my understanding has always been that Cap was considered a sort of “honorary founder.” He wasn’t there right at the beginning, but he was there early enough that he sort of got counted. Plus, he’s Cap. He’s so awesome that there’s no reason he can’t be a founding member of an organization that was founded while he was unconscious! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/7 "2015-03-20T15:37:36Z")
No, he is not a founding member. It absolutely _sucks_ that he isn’t (and worse, that asshole Hank Pym _is_) but there you have it - absent time travel, how could he be a founding member _of the same superhero team that revived him_? That kind of paradox destroys universes! I’m cool with him having “Honorary Founder” status in place of Hulk, though. It’s their team, they can give out as many fake titles as they want. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/8 "2015-03-20T17:06:15Z")
He has honorary founder status that’s all that matter. …wait NONE of this matters. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/9 "2015-03-20T19:38:36Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > He has honorary founder status that’s all that matter. …wait NONE of this matters. As a big comics geek, I endorse this post. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/10 "2015-03-20T19:49:18Z")
Cap is not a founding member in the sense that he came up with the idea, signed the charter, and so forth. He’s a founder in that he’s integral to what the group became. He’s much more important to the group’s history than Hulk is. Hell, even though he wasn’t in charge in the early days (when it was him, Stark, Thor, Jan, and Hank), he was the group’s first real leader. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, he is not a founding member. It absolutely _sucks_ that he isn’t (and worse, that asshole Hank Pym _is_) . I’ll be sending a Kaylee Frye slapbot over to explain why your slander of the greatly underappreciated Henry Pym is a crime–nay, a sin. At least, I think it’s a slapbot. It might be a hookerbot. A lot of the labels got mixed up when the thing with Storm happened the other day. It doesn’t matter, you’ll figure it out soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/11 "2015-03-20T20:06:47Z")
In which continuity? In the original comics continuity, he was not. But the continuities where he was are better than the ones where he was not, because it takes one Hell of a great leader to fit all of those egos into one team, and Cap’s the only one who can do that. Without Cap, you’ve got a bunch of superheroes who all have roughly consistent goals. With Cap, you’ve got a super-team. There’s a world of difference between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/12 "2015-03-20T20:12:08Z")
This can be pretty easily fanwanked beyond the Busiek/Perez retcon that Cap was given Hulk’s charter membership. (So Hulk isn’t a founding member any more). The fanwank is simply this: The Avengers had 2 adventures after they came together at the end of Avengers issue 1. One was vs the Space Phantom and one was vs Namor (and IIRC, Hulk fought against the Avengers in both issues for the bulk of the story). The fanwank: What with Space-Phantoms and Avenging Princes and all, the Avengers really didn’t have _time_ to sign the paperwork/documentation/charter/whatever. Just putting your hands together and saying “Let’s call ourselves the Avengers” isn’t “founding” the Avengers, it’s putting the idea forward as a concept. Saying “Let’s put on a show” doesn’t make you eligible for the Tony Awards. Getting investors, hiring performers and renting a theater _does_. They didn’t do the paperwork until between issue 4 and 5. By which point Hulk had quit. So Cap’s name is on the founding documents, and Hulk’s scrawled X isn’t. See? Fanwanking is fun! Everyone join in. 😛 In the same vein, the FF didn’t actually get uniforms until about issue 4 either. So apparently it takes some time to found a super-team in the Marvel Universe ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/13 "2015-03-20T20:50:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll be sending a Kaylee Frye slapbot over to explain why your slander of the greatly underappreciated Henry Pym is a crime–nay, a sin. Guy’s _always_ a dick (in those universes where he\* isn’t \*an outright wifebeater and turncoat traitor) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/14 "2015-03-20T21:00:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Guy’s _always_ a dick (in those universes where he\* isn’t \*an outright wifebeater and turncoat traitor) Fuck that shit. Pym lost his temper once, slapped Jan once, and immediately was aghast and apologized. He’s done more good than bad. Well, except for Ultron. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/15 "2015-03-20T21:11:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > isn’t \*an outright **wifebeater** So is Spiderman…he actually was just mad and hit Mary Jane, Pym was going through an emotional breakdown when he slapped Wasp. Pym has always been a great character because he struggles with the world he’s in. It comes easy to a lot of his peers. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/16 "2015-03-20T22:05:00Z")
Something else occurs to me. The Avengers, from very early on, had some sort of very high government clearance. I can imagine that they government was a lot happier giving that to them given that Cap was a founder. I think Fenris’s fanwank is spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/17 "2015-03-20T22:22:28Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > This can be pretty easily fanwanked beyond the Busiek/Perez retcon that Cap was given Hulk’s charter membership. (So Hulk isn’t a founding member any more). At different points both the Avengers and Banner/Hulk have used the reinstatement as a Founder as a bargaining chip with the other. I’m not sure what the current state of it is. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/18 "2015-03-20T23:04:31Z")
My shaky memory tells me that Marvel wanted another supergroup because _Fantastic Four_ sold so well, but quickly realized that it would play havoc with continuity of the comics featuring the big names. They had teased a revival of Cap in _Fantastic Four_, and used _The Avengers_ as a launching site. Instead of big names, they reversed it and added three former supervillains who were no-names and, more importantly, didn’t have their own titles. (If you think that everybody in comicdom didn’t hate this bait-and-switch, you’d be very wrong.) Cap also had no separate book. His adventures, split with Iron Man in those days when Marvel didn’t have enough mailing permits to give everybody their own titles, came later in 1964 and they stayed in WWII for a year or so. So in a sense, _The Avengers_ was a sham to give Cap a test ground to see if they could really make a success of a WWII character. If not, he would have been refrozen or something. I guess that would make him a founding member. Personally, I hated Cap and hated the three bickering no-names, and wanted the good characters back and didn’t know any of this behind-the-scenes stuff for years, so I refuse to allow Cap be a founding member of a group he ruined. And I’ve always hated Marvel ruining Hank Pym’s character. Always. From the first time they said, hey, let’s make a character with poor sales a bad guy and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/19 "2015-03-21T00:02:35Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463/20 "2015-03-24T02:02:25Z")
Rick Jones has more of a claim on Avengers founder status than Cap does. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-captain-america-be-a-founding-member-of-the-avengers/715463.md?page=2)