# Should Catholic priests be required to report crimes admitted in the confessional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052 "2012-11-15T01:19:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/21 "2012-11-15T15:08:29Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > The issue becomes somewhat different however, when someone tells you that they are a kindergarten teacher and they molest children in their charge everyday. You know that they will continue to do that unless you act. > > I think that is also a little closer to the problem with the Catholic church: that often it was well known that people in charge of children molested them and they were not removed from their position. If they were, they were often moved to another position where they would work with children again. This while the Catholic church has pretty obvious way of keeping people out of harm’s way. They had the means to act, they often had the knowledge, and they did nothing. I see why people want them to take responsibility. I’m not entirely sure, however, that changing the law so that priests have to report confessions of crimes will have the intended effect. The issue with the Church is quite different because they are an employer and the crime is being committed on their property. I can see that an employer has an obligation keep the workplace safe. But if I meet someone at a party, and they tell me they are a child molester, I will certainly contact the authorities, but I shouldn’t be legally required to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/22 "2012-11-15T15:17:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Absolutely not. Priest-penitent privilege should not be eliminated. This (notwithstanding the fact that I think the whole idea of clergy-as-counselor is silly). That is not to say that a bishop who finds out one of his subordinates is a kiddy-diddler should be immune from civil or criminal liability. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/23 "2012-11-15T15:18:04Z")
Changing secular law on priest-penitent privilege isn’t going to change the Church’s insistence on the confidentiality of the confessional. Requiring priests to testify as to what they heard in the booth will, in practice, just cause a lot of priests to be jailed for contempt, while yielding little to no additional information. The Church coverups of sexual abuse took place as part of the Church’s general operations, which aren’t privileged. It wasn’t a question of abusers shielding themselves with the confessional. ---
**Author:** ![Fatalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Fatalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatalis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/24 "2012-11-15T15:21:02Z")
Devil’s advocate: The Catholic Church should have all of it’s buildings/churches/cathedrals closed by the UN until they can get their pedophile priests in check. People are free to practice and observe their faith in private, but until all of the guilty parties are outed, and a vetting system for future priests is in place, they do not deserve the privilege of acting as the heads of faith communities. If the Pope doesn’t play ball, put him on house arrest in the Vatican. Realistic? No, obviously not, but it would probably be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/25 "2012-11-15T15:30:28Z")
I think a line has to be drawn between reporting the commission of a crime, and preventing an impending one form becoming an actuality. David Cash, while an unpleasantly extreme example, is still a clear-cut and useful one. It’s impossible for most of us to imagine standing by and feeling no sense of responsibility in his position. It is likewise difficult to imagine a priest of good conscience, not rejoicing in being freed to act should a confession reveal to him a child or other innocent victim living in peril. The argument that bad people would stop confessing to priestss is a compelling one. But then, I can not see how the current state of affairs is any improvement upon it. _All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke_ ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/26 "2012-11-15T15:32:13Z")
> [@Muffins](#): > > But having said that I know squat about priesthood, I guess the rationale is something like ‘if they repent they have less chance of going to hell’, the higher moral authority and all that. The logic is (and this is what I remember from 13 years of Catholic primary and secondary school) is that you’re not actually confessing _to_ the priest, you’re confessing your sins to the almighty; the priest is simply there as a conduit. Theologically speaking, he’s the Holy rabbit ears, if you will. I don’t think anyone should be compelled to cough up a confessional, unless they have reason to believe that the perpetrator is going to go out and kill/steal/whatever again. Obviously that’s a judgement call. But it’s a trust relationship, and changing the law would simply mean that no one would want to confess to a priest their really bad shit anymore. Which I think is already the norm, anyway. I mean, outside of pedophile priests (which sounds to me like the square aim of this), is this really an issue in 2012? How many of us Papists are going around committing felonies, only to scurry off to Church to get spiritual catharsis? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/27 "2012-11-15T15:39:16Z")
> [@Fatalis](#): > > The Catholic Church should have all of it’s buildings/churches/cathedrals closed by the UN… > > \ > > Realistic? No, obviously not, but it would probably be a good idea. The _UN_? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/28 "2012-11-15T15:54:35Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I think a line has to be drawn between reporting the commission of a crime, and preventing an impending one form becoming an actuality. This. And since people tend to confess past sins, rather than future sins they intend to commit (and if you’re intending to commit more sins, you hardly qualify as repentant anyway), the only time I can see that a priest should be required to report a crime is if it is a serial crime that the confessing individual is likely to repeat, regardless of the sincerity of their repentance. Child molesters and serial rapists would certainly qualify. The other thing is if the Church is taking actions of its own outside of the confessional booth on the basis of sins it knows about, e.g. arranging for therapy for the molesting priest or moving him to another parish, I can’t see why it shouldn’t be required to also report to the civil authorities. Anything that the Church itself doesn’t keep in the confessional is fair game, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/29 "2012-11-15T17:55:11Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think it should be the same as laws between therapists and patients, as functionally they are quite similar. On a larger scale, I think that in many cases, having someone to talk to can help the offender find a better path. Without anyone to confide in, an offender may decide he or she is doomed, and use that as license to commit more crimes. I believe therapists are required to report suspected abuse (at least in the US). The laws on mandatory reporting on suspected child abuse by clergy are more subtle, it is one thing to require clergy to report child abuse admitted by the perpetrator during confession and quite another if suspicions of child abuse are based on observations or reports experienced outside of the ‘clergy-penitent-privilege’ role. It would seem that a clear and narrow definition of what constitutes ‘clergy-penitent privilege’ would be helpful, as clergy members play many different roles and not all of them should be privileged. Admissions made in the confession booth are privileged, admissions, reports or observations made outside of it are not and should be subject to mandatory reporting laws. For example,[this](http://www.kansascity.com/2012/09/06/3800269/bishop-finn-verdict-guilty.html) Bishop was convicted for failing to report suspected child abuse and I believe it is these types of cases that are more at issue, where clergy observe or are privy to reports of abuse outside of the confession booth and try to cover it up in house rather than informing the authorities. Of course, the challenge is finding evidence of knowledge and cover-up. Though, I do think a lot of abuse has been swept under the rug under too broad a definition of clergy privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/30 "2012-11-15T18:05:52Z")
I have no problems with making priests mandatory reporters as we do with teachers, therapists, and the like regardless of confessional seals. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/31 "2012-11-15T18:56:07Z")
In this country, if I admitted to my friend BOB I had stolen a pear, would he be legally obligated to inform the proper authorities? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/32 "2012-11-15T19:15:23Z")
Assuming “this country” is the US: no, assuming he was not employed in some profession defined as a mandatory reporter under the law of the relevant jurisdiction, and/or you didn’t tell him as a function of his employment. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/33 "2012-11-15T19:21:11Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I have no problems with making priests mandatory reporters as we do with teachers, therapists, and the like regardless of confessional seals. Frankly, it doesn’t much matter what you want. It ain’t gonna happen no matter what laws you pass and how much hot air you blow. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/34 "2012-11-15T19:22:35Z")
I meant the country in question. Whatever country the Original Poster is referring to. It didn’t seem as if he was speaking about the US. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/35 "2012-11-15T19:24:44Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Frankly, it doesn’t much matter what you want. It ain’t gonna happen no matter what laws you pass and how much hot air you blow. Who said anything about wanting? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/36 "2012-11-15T19:30:11Z")
_ **ANYWAY** _, now that I received no answer, it should only be required legally **only if it is required for any other regular citizen**. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/37 "2012-11-15T19:36:42Z")
God forbid nobody in Australia responds to your question within half an hour. It’s 6 in the morning there. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/38 "2012-11-15T19:38:13Z")
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound hostile. I didn’t realize the country in question was actually Australia. I didn’t think there would be too many Catholic Churches in Australia. Then again, ignorance exists everywhere, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/39 "2012-11-15T19:47:01Z")
According to the CIA factbook, proportionally, catholics make up a larger chunk of the australian population than they do the US population. ---
**Author:** ![vaultermn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4bbf92/32.png) [@vaultermn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vaultermn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052/40 "2012-11-15T20:07:11Z")
> [@Fatalis](#): > > If the Pope doesn’t play ball, put him on house arrest in the Vatican You know that the Vatican is sovereign, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholic-priests-be-required-to-report-crimes-admitted-in-the-confessional/641052.md?page=3)