# Should Catholics Really Vote Republican? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813 "2011-04-26T19:31:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mac9891](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@mac9891](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac9891)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/1 "2011-04-26T19:31:15Z")
I have many Catholic friends who like to debate with me and always rail on how people need to vote Republican because of pro-life. Which I understand, but should Catholics be just as concerned with the poor and the lives lost there. Though I can’t speak for all Catholics only the ones I know but so many base their votes solely on this one issue. They don’t even take into account the many other polices that either party stand for. My question to you are Catholics being hoodwinked into voting for a party because of the pro-life issue, a party that debate-ably goes against other Catholic views such as taking care of the poor and the elderly. As well as being a party that leans more towards fighting wars, which I thing Jesus would say turn the other cheek too. I’d like to hear your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/2 "2011-04-26T19:43:21Z")
I’m not Catholic and maybe I misunderstand their theology, but I thought the pro-life stance of the Catholic church is both anti-abortion and anti-capital punishment. I don’t know of many political candidates that satisfy both those requirements, so I don’t think they can vote based on the Catholic pro-life position. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/3 "2011-04-26T19:47:14Z")
Doesn’t the Catholic vote lean towards the Democratic Party? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/4 "2011-04-26T19:49:32Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m not Catholic and maybe I misunderstand their theology, but I thought the pro-life stance of the Catholic church is both anti-abortion and anti-capital punishment. I don’t know of many political candidates that satisfy both those requirements, so I don’t think they can vote based on the Catholic pro-life position. The two are not weighed equally. The death penalty is permissible in certain cases if it’s necessary to protect society. In this country, in this day and age, those circumstances simply don’t exist, but the fact remains that the death penalty may be supported. Abortion, on the other hand, has a much more narrow shelf life. But the larger picture the OP paints is correct. Until fairly recently, Catholics were more reliably Democratic voters precisely because of the church’s teachings on social justice. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/5 "2011-04-26T20:01:37Z")
The Catholic Church agrees with the Democratic Party on pretty much everything except abortion, and even there, the argument can be made that the Democrats do more to oppose abortion than the Republicans do. I don’t know what the current pope has said on the topic, but John Paul the Great said that, while it is a sin to vote for a candidate _because_ that candidate supports a right to abortion, it is still acceptable to vote for a candidate _despite_ that candidate’s views on abortion, provided he has other virtues to recommend him. Of course, the same can be said of candidates who support war, or the death penalty, or any of a myriad other issues the Church is opposed to. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/6 "2011-04-26T20:52:32Z")
could it be that some Catholics disagree with you on what is the proper way of caring for the poor and the elderly? What does the welfare state, forced multiculturalism and sex education in increasingly low school grades have to do with [Catholic social teaching - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching) and in particular the principle of subsidiarity (which unfortunately lacks a good wikipedia article)? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/7 "2011-04-26T22:07:06Z")
IANAC, but to expand on **Bricker** ’s point, the Catholic church teaches that is always wrong to set a goal of harming an innocent person. (The technical wording is that one may not “intend” to harm an innocent person.) One may set other goals that one knows will unfortunately harm innocent people, but causing harm to them can never be the part of the goal, no matter what. You can say, “If I blow up Dr. Evil’s lair, innocent people will be killed in the explosion, but it’ll save the world, so it can’t be helped.” You can NOT say, “If I kill this one innocent person (say, a baby who would cry and wake Dr. Evil’s minions) I will be able to destroy Dr. Evil’s lair and save the world with no one else getting hurt. Otherwise, everyone will die, so I’d better do it.” In the former case, innocent people dying is not part of your goal, even though you know it will happen if you act. In the latter case, killing an innocent person is part of your goal (even if it’s just an intermediate step to saving the world) and that is morally wrong no matter what according to Catholic doctrine. Since abortion, _by definition_ involves killing what the Catholic church believes is an innocent person, there is no way for abortion to be morally allowable in any situation, ever, no matter what. Not even to save the mother’s life. (Though if in saving the mother’s life, the fetus is _accidentally_ aborted, that’s allowable, even if you knew it would happen. God will know the difference and presumably so will the doctor doing it, even if no one else does.) War, social justice, the death penalty, all those are different. The Catholic Church generally believes war is wrong, but it acknowledges that there are situations where it is justified. Even if the Catholic Church says that _this particular_ war is wrong, you might disagree, not on the doctrine, but on the facts. Same with the death penalty. The Church says, as part of it’s moral teaching, that the death penalty is only morally allowable where it is absolutely necessary to preserve social order. The Church also takes the position that this is not the case in any modern society, but that’s a position on the facts, not a moral teaching per se. That means that if a politician says that we should invade Canada, it doesn’t _necessarily_ mean that he’s a bad person. He might agree with Catholic morals, and just be extremely misinformed about the situation in Canada, such that he thinks it justifies a war under Catholic doctrine. Same for all the other stuff. EXCEPT abortion. If a politician is in favor of allowing abortion, then he disagrees with a fundamental moral teaching of the Church, in other words, he holds a basically immoral position. Most Catholics, including most bishops, seem to have generally believed that it is up to the individual voter to decide if the guy wanting to invade Canada is really that misinformed about Canada (but still a good person) or if he’s actually rejecting Catholic moral teaching, and likewise whether the guy wanting to keep abortion legal really thinks abortion is morally permissible or if he just thinks that outlawing it will lead women to have dangerous back-alley abortions but won’t reduce their number. Also, I believe, though I may be wrong, that the voter was allowed to choose between a moral idiot who wants to start wars and a morally bankrupt person who nevertheless would practice good governance that would further morally good goals. Recently, some bishops and lay Catholics have begun arguing that because abortion is such a clear case of moral depravity, that acceptance of it cannot be countenanced. This is a break from earlier teaching and from the stated position of the Vatican, but it seems to be becoming more common. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/8 "2011-04-26T22:24:13Z")
Regardless of how Catholics should or shouldn’t vote, historically, like **Bricker** says, they voted consistantly Democratic (and I think it was partly because of the Church’s teachings on social justice, but also partly because of strains of nativism in the Republican party and because of urban Democratic machines), but recently, their voting patterns line up pretty consistently with national voting patterns. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/9 "2011-04-26T22:39:24Z")
Single issue voters suck ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/10 "2011-04-27T02:51:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Catholic Church agrees with the Democratic Party on pretty much everything except abortion, and even there, the argument can be made that the Democrats do more to oppose abortion than the Republicans do. I’d like to see that argument. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/11 "2011-04-27T05:43:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’d like to see that argument. It’s pretty obvious. Democrats, in general, tend to support the kind of things that prevent the need for abortion, like sex education, contraception, and social programs that make child-rearing affordable. Republicans, in general, don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/12 "2011-04-27T05:46:15Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > It’s pretty obvious. Democrats, in general, tend to support the kind of things that prevent the need for abortion, like sex education, contraception, and social programs that make child-rearing affordable. Republicans, in general, don’t. I’m under the impression the Catholic Church isn’t big on contraception either 😉 ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/13 "2011-04-27T05:52:23Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > It’s pretty obvious. Democrats, in general, tend to support the kind of things that prevent the need for abortion, like sex education, contraception, and social programs that make child-rearing affordable. Republicans, in general, don’t. If this is what he meant by “oppose” then that’s a funny use of the English language. But fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/14 "2011-04-27T12:10:44Z")
Instead of voting the party, vote the person. Stop, look the candidate up on the internet, read his [using generic, he/him/his = make and female] platform, read a selection of press releases, released speeches. Call the campaign office and ask questions if something isn’t clear. Lather, Rinse Repeat with other candidates until you have a good idea of what everybody’s platform is. Stop and research - planned parenthood is not just all about the abortions, they are about health care for women who cannot afford regular doctors, they do STD testing, treatment and counseling. They offer many services to women _keeping_ the babies. Question everything. Make an informed decision. Sure it takes more time, and makes you actually _think_, but isn’t that what you should be doing? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/15 "2011-04-27T12:23:50Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Single issue voters suck That’s why I always vote for the Anti-Single Issue Voter party! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/16 "2011-04-27T12:32:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Catholic Church agrees with the Democratic Party on pretty much everything except abortion, and even there, the argument can be made that the Democrats do more to oppose abortion than the Republicans do. I don’t know what the current pope has said on the topic, but John Paul the Great said that, while it is a sin to vote for a candidate _because_ that candidate supports a right to abortion, it is still acceptable to vote for a candidate _despite_ that candidate’s views on abortion, provided he has other virtues to recommend him. Of course, the same can be said of candidates who support war, or the death penalty, or any of a myriad other issues the Church is opposed to. I suspect your “do more” argument is something along the lines of showing that Democrats favor sex ed, birth control, and the like, and the adoption of those policies would lead to ferer abortions? If it isn’t that, I’d be very interested in hearing it. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/17 "2011-04-27T13:19:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suspect your “do more” argument is something along the lines of showing that Democrats favor sex ed, birth control, and the like, and the adoption of those policies would lead to ferer abortions? Probably, but I suppose one could conceivably argue that democrats do more to decrease abortions because—say—the economy does better under democratic control and abortion is negatively correlated with socioeconomic status. That’d be kind of gimmicky, though, and the true effect of partisan control on the economy is debatable. It’s true that abortion rates decreased somewhat steadily over Clinton’s presidency (year by year 25.2, 24.0, 22.8, 22.8, 22.3, 22.0, 21.9, 21.3, rate per 1000 women of child bearing age) but remained more constant during most of Bush II’s (20.9, 20.5, 21.0, 19.7, 19.4, 19.9, 19.5, 19.6). [Cite.](http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html) But I don’t necessarily think that means anything. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/18 "2011-04-27T13:45:27Z")
> [@mac9891](#): > > I have many Catholic friends who like to debate with me and always rail on how people need to vote Republican because of pro-life. Which I understand, but should Catholics be just as concerned with the poor and the lives lost there. Though I can’t speak for all Catholics only the ones I know but so many base their votes solely on this one issue. They don’t even take into account the many other polices that either party stand for. > My question to you are Catholics being hoodwinked into voting for a party because of the pro-life issue, a party that debate-ably goes against other Catholic views such as taking care of the poor and the elderly. As well as being a party that leans more towards fighting wars, which I thing Jesus would say turn the other cheek too. > > I’d like to hear your opinions. Being a Catholic, I was hoodwinked into voting for Obama in '08. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/19 "2011-04-27T15:44:46Z")
**Alan Smithee** , thanks for the detailed explanation. But I have one question, about: > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Since abortion, _by definition_ involves killing what the Catholic church believes is an innocent person, there is no way for abortion to be morally allowable in any situation, ever, no matter what. Not even to save the mother’s life. (Though if in saving the mother’s life, the fetus is _accidentally_ aborted, that’s allowable, even if you knew it would happen. God will know the difference and presumably so will the doctor doing it, even if no one else does.) From a Catholic point of view, couldn’t someone believe abortion is acceptable because they disagree on the fact that the fetus is an innocent person? That is, is “a fetus is a person” a fact that is open to disagreement, or is it a matter of doctrine? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813/20 "2011-04-27T16:31:13Z")
IMHO in the US Catholic teaching has been spun into ways to oppose Democratic policies. As Alan Smithee said above, “the Catholic church teaches that is always wrong to **set a goal of harming an innocent person**.” (emphasis added). This was spun to cause many Catholics to oppose Obama care because it was supposedly pro abortion, even though it does not “have the goal of harming the innocent.” Obamacare is a macro level policy, and to abort or not to abort is a micro level decision by a woman and her doctor, and not by the Federal government or the Obama administration. Nevertheless, my parish priest said that the health care act was pro-abortion and should be opposed, even though to my mind it wasn’t at all pro abortion and would in fact favor the less fortnuate, ie those without health care or who had preexisting conditions. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-catholics-really-vote-republican/579813.md?page=2)