# Should chaplains, rabbis, etc be kicked out of the US forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298 "2013-05-02T08:54:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/41 "2013-05-02T18:40:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It would absolve the soldier of his responsibility to God. But that’s not the issue here. The issue is whether the government can deny a person’s access to religion by not allowing him to attend religious services. And the Constitution says no. It doesn’t matter if the government does it by conscripting you into the Army or locking you up in prison or padlocking your church - the First Amendment says the government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion. But does the government have to provide a religious service for soldiers? I say no. Not sure what the law surrounding this subject says, but I find it hard to believe that constitutionally the government is required to provide religious services for anyone, no matter what job they are currently employed in. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/42 "2013-05-02T19:07:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But does the government have to provide a religious service for soldiers? I say no. Not sure what the law surrounding this subject says, but I find it hard to believe that constitutionally the government is required to provide religious services for anyone, no matter what job they are currently employed in. The government isn’t required to provide religious services to just anyone. Generally, you’re able to go out and get your own religious services. What the Constitution says is the government isn’t allowed to prevent you from getting your own religious services. And that’s where chaplains come in. If the government is making you live someplace where you can’t go out and get your own religious services (and that can be an aircraft carrier or a prison) then they have to bring religious services to you. Note that this only applies when it’s the government that’s stopping you from going to religious services. The government is not obligated to do anything for you if you can’t go to services because you’re handicapped or you live in a remote location or your boss makes you work on weekends. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/43 "2013-05-02T19:16:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have no idea, but don’t see why it should be my problem as a taxpayer. If attending to the various demands of a person’s religion are so important to that person, perhaps they should not have volunteered to join an organization who’s very purpose will make it difficult if not impossible to do so. I’m sure you don’t remember that far back–but membership in the military has not always been voluntary. Chaplains bless troops headed into battle, pray with the wounded & dying, conduct funerals–and counsel even those who do not share their faith. Or any faith. At least one veteran has told here us why he thinks chaplains are of use. However, the title of this thread has nothing to do with the article in the OP. And the article has nothing to do with the work of Mikey Weinstein. Weinstein (Jewish, not an Atheist) has been fighting active proselytization within the military–most specifically at the Air Force Academy. Mostly by superior officers–_not_ chaplains. He’s a colorful character and has made some rabid enemies among the Religious Right. They lie. A lot. Let him [speak for himself](http://www.pjvoice.com/v32/32300words.aspx): > [@](#): > > I tell people also this is not a Christian-Jewish issue, it is a fundamentalist Christian versus the Constitution issue. I am not at war with Christianity, I’m not at war with evangelical Christianity: we have a number of evangelical Christians that are not just clients but big supporters of ours, including David Iglesias, one of the eight U.S. Attorneys fired a year ago. He was U.S. Attorney in New Mexico, he’s a right wing, born-again, evangelical Christian Republican, one of my closest friends, but we are at war with a small subset of evangelical Christianity – about 12.6% of the American public, about 38 million Americans – the Premillenial, Dispensational, Reconstructionist Dominionist, Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians who believe they have an unlimited right to push their particular biblical worldview (the gospel of Jesus Christ) irrespective of time, place and manner, regulation by our Constitution of any other type of law… I’m hoping our OP is merely mistaken, but his use of the meaningless phrase “secular Puritanism” makes me fear he may be disingenuous… ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/44 "2013-05-02T19:17:25Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > To me, the questions that need to be answered are: > > 1. Are there any religions that unequivocally necessitate a 2nd person to administer rituals that couldn’t be fulfilled by the adherents? For Catholics, yes. Only an ordained priest can officiate at Mass, and grant absolution. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/45 "2013-05-02T19:43:14Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > For Catholics, yes. Only an ordained priest can officiate at Mass, and grant absolution. According to the RCC, can a Muslim officiate mass or grant absolution? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/46 "2013-05-02T19:47:13Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > For Catholics, yes. Only an ordained priest can officiate at Mass, and grant absolution. So does this mean that, no matter what other services a chaplain might perform for other services, the chaplain for Catholic services has to be Catholic? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/47 "2013-05-02T19:51:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Note that this only applies when it’s the government that’s stopping you from going to religious services. The government is not obligated to do anything for you if you can’t go to services because you’re handicapped or you live in a remote location or your boss makes you work on weekends. But does this mean that the government is obligated to provide me with a religious leader/services that I recognize? If the government ships me out to a combat zone in the middle of nowhere and provides a rabbi how does that allow me as a Catholic to practice my religion? I don’t recognize the religious authority of a rabbi. From my perspective the military might as well have provided me a bartender for all of the good it does my ability to practice my religion. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/48 "2013-05-02T19:57:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It would absolve the soldier of his responsibility to God. But that’s not the issue here. The issue is whether the government can deny a person’s access to religion by not allowing him to attend religious services. And the Constitution says no. It doesn’t matter if the government does it by conscripting you into the Army or locking you up in prison or padlocking your church - the First Amendment says the government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion. Can you be more specific regarding what religion is other than detailing your responsibilities to God and how to fulfil them? If the tenets of the religion are specific in that if you find yourself in position x and take action y all is kosher (hehe), in what way is the government required to ensure that you are not placed into position x as long as they allow you action y? For example, let’s say my religion requires me to kiss the hand of a new age meister every day. It also specifies that if the meister is not available I can recite a nursery rhyme to fulfil the requirement. As long as the military allows me to recite a nursery rhyme, what obligation do they have to ensure I have access to a meister? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/49 "2013-05-02T20:04:16Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Full bore atheist here, and I’ve got no problem with them so long as they mind their own god-damned business. Once they start–ugh–“sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ” in any way at all, I think they’re crossing a line. (That goes for _shudder_ “sharing the gospel of” YHWH, Buddha, Krishna, Odin, Athena, or anyone else you care to name as well.) > > Regarding the counselor role–I think that’s quite valuable. But if I were in the military (and I would’ve been, but for GERD and an excess of honesty ;P), I’d sorely wish for there to be a “counselor” I could go to without him pushing His LORD and Saviour Jesus H. Christ on me. Atheist chaplains, anyone? > [@dstarfire](#): > > Spiritual councilors are a necessity for people who are risking their lives and dealing with morally ambiguous situations on a regular basis. As such, I think chaplains are a good thing as long as they’re not promoting a religion, and revoke any oaths of loyalty or obedience they may have given to a church or other religious hierarchy. > > Promoting religion, even in their off-duty hours, is using government resources to further religious goals.Travel to their duty station was paid for by the military they serve. They are kept safe, sheltered and fed by that same military. Therefore, they would not have access to those potential converts without military support which is funded by American taxpayers who share a variety of religious beliefs (I’m counting atheism as a religion (it’s the ‘none of the above’ option)), including quite a few with the attitude of ‘keep your religion to yourself’. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I was in U.S.A.F. basic training, those who agreed to go to church on Sunday morning were excused from the Sunday cleanup detail, and those who sang in the choir were fed first every morning. > [@DrCube](#): > > In Ft. Riley about a decade ago, there was a real problem with preferential treatment to soldiers who attended the same church as the higher NCOs and officers, and quite a bit of our formations included Christian prayers. This is completely unacceptable and should be forbidden. > > On the other hand, chaplains provide a valuable service, and people should be able to share their religious beliefs so long as verbal disagreement is also allowed. > > Forcing religion is bad, but allowing it is not. I know sometimes the line is blurry, but I think chaplains and religious speech fall squarely in the latter category. > [@Icarus](#): > > To answer the direct question of the OP - no, I don’t believe they should be kicked out of the military. For all of the reasons stated they are useful and necessary. > > However, I admire M. Weinstein for taking this position, and the administration for dialoging on this subject. By taking this position he is putting a firm stake in the ground, a technique used quite effectively by others (e.g. NRA). What he ends up getting will certainly be far from his stated goal, but it will move the argument in his direction, if even slightly. > > What he is trying to address, of course, is the aggressive Christianization of much of the military. Similar to gays living in the don’t ask/don’t tell era - non-christians and non-believers are not made to feel accepted or welcome. This has to be addressed. The sort of favoritism of which these posts, especially **Czarcasm** ’s s[eal. is unfortunately apparently all too common in the services. In addition to these data points, Daniel R. Kirk Jr. of Equality California is on record, including a personal e-mail to me, that this sort of BS was common on the Navy ships on which he sailed. A USAF Acadeemy graduate indicaed that success at the Academy correlated strongly with membeership in the nondenominational megachurch near its main gate which was in the news a couple of years ago when its senior pastor was caught with a male prostitute. Having argued upthread about the value of the chaplain program to free exercise, it’s only appropriate for me also to speak up endorsing the evil inherent in its cpp[topm fpr evamge;os, by a segment of the Religious Right. I think bDrCube\*\* has a gppd handle on the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/50 "2013-05-02T20:06:10Z")
I’ve been told that Chaplains are required not to speak as representatives of a particular religion. Is that not the case? ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/51 "2013-05-02T20:09:38Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > But does this mean that the government is obligated to provide me with a religious leader/services that I recognize? If the government ships me out to a combat zone in the middle of nowhere and provides a rabbi how does that allow me as a Catholic to practice my religion? I don’t recognize the religious authority of a rabbi. From my perspective the military might as well have provided me a bartender for all of the good it does my ability to practice my religion. Don’t you remember the episode of _M_A_S_H\* where Father Mulcahy performed a bris with the assistance of a rabbi who transmitted the instructions over the radio? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/52 "2013-05-02T20:27:04Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > To understand their role, I looked first at the[requirements to be a chaplain:](http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about/requirements.html) > > Based on the requirements, I can’t help but think that the line between exercising freedom to practice one’s beliefs and government support of beliefs can get quite blurry. The problem is what can go from allowing one to believe to actually using tax payer money for things like Fort Bragg’s [Rock the Fort](http://www.grahamfestival.org/festival/index.aspx?cid=26) supported by the Evangelical Graham foundation. Is that a necessary thing for personal worship or is that a proselytizing event? (IMO, it’s definitely the latter.) > > To me, the questions that need to be answered are: > > 1. Are there any religions that unequivocally necessitate a 2nd person to administer rituals that couldn’t be fulfilled by the adherents? > 2. Are there any needs that couldn’t be met by a military psychologist instead? > 3. Are chaplains able to service the needs of all personnel, atheist and humanists included? > 4. Can chaplains be an agent on the government and not cross the boundary to promoting religion? > > My guess would be no to all four thus being unnecessary and/or unconstitutional. You know, I find it hard to believe that \*you _of all people are asking these questions. If you can’t hear the exact same tone as "I don’t have anything against you [i[personally_. but we don’t want you tryin’ any of that _queer_ stuff around here!" in the tone of them, I can assure you that others can. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/53 "2013-05-02T20:37:15Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have no idea, but don’t see why it should be my problem as a taxpayer. If attending to the various demands of a person’s religion are so important to that person, perhaps they should not have volunteered to join an organization who’s very purpose will make it difficult if not impossible to do so. “Let’s all go down to the quarry and have a Tea Party”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/54 "2013-05-02T20:39:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The sort of favoritism of which these posts, especially **Czarcasm** ’s s[eal. is unfortunately apparently all too common in the services. In addition to these data points, Daniel R. Kirk Jr. of Equality California is on record, including a personal e-mail to me, that this sort of BS was common on the Navy ships on which he sailed. A USAF Acadeemy graduate indicaed that success at the Academy correlated strongly with membeership in the nondenominational megachurch near its main gate which was in the news a couple of years ago when its senior pastor was caught with a male prostitute. Having argued upthread about the value of the chaplain program to free exercise, it’s only appropriate for me also to speak up endorsing the evil inherent in its cpp[topm fpr evamge;os, by a segment of the Religious Right. I think bDrCube\*\* has a gppd handle on the problem. Hope you’re OK. It looks like you were trying to type this on an iPad while riding over cobblestones! 😃 Seriously, though, proselytizing is out of line, no matter who is doing it or why. If my CO was preaching the benefits of Amway and told me I’d get a weekend pass for attending a meeting I’d be pissed. I would probably go to the IG. Similarly, favoritism is wrong. I did see some sergeants giving guys a break on messed up rooms or sloppy uniforms because they were drinking buddies, just like you see that kind of stuff in the office. I never saw any disproportional treatment of people depending on whether or not they went to a religious service (I’m not religious and so never attended and was not penalized for it). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/55 "2013-05-02T20:46:10Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I’m sure you don’t remember that far back–but membership in the military has not always been voluntary. Thanks; I’m older than I look, tho. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/56 "2013-05-02T21:22:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Having argued upthread about the value of the chaplain program to free exercise, it’s only appropriate for me also to speak up endorsing the evil inherent in its cpp[topm fpr evamge;os, by a segment of the Religious Right. I think bDrCube\*\* has a gppd handle on the problem. > [@Slypork](#): > > Hope you’re OK. It looks like you were trying to type this on an iPad while riding over cobblestones! 😃 Let me see if I can forensically reconstruct **Poly** ’s post: > [@](#): > > Having argued upthread about the value of the chaplain program to free exercise, it’s only appropriate for me also to speak up endorsing the evil inherent in its [del]cpp[topm fpr evamge;os,[/del] _cooption for evangelism_ by a segment of the Religious Right. I think [del]bDrCube\*\*[/del] _ **DrCube** _ has a [del]gppd[/del] _good_ handle on the problem. That about it, **Poly**? 🙂 ETA: Something _still_ doesn’t seem quite right, though. I’d have thought that instead of _endorsing_ the evil, you’d be _condemning_ it. That would seem more in character for you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/57 "2013-05-02T21:35:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Let me see if I can forensically reconstruct **Poly** ’s post: > > That about it, **Poly**? 🙂 > > ETA: Something _still_ doesn’t seem quite right, though. I’d have thought that instead of _endorsing_ the evil, you’d be _condemning_ it. That would seem more in character for you. 😛 Yep, you got it. I am slowly losing my eyesight in my left eye; my right eye is cataracted to the point of near-uselessness. So proofing is very difficult for me. And yes, I did mean to endorse the condemnation, or something like that, when I went back to fix typoes and lost track of the sentence. :o ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/58 "2013-05-02T21:37:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Getting the clergy out of the military makes perfect sense until you realize that without them it creates a substantial burden on the free exercise of religion for soldiers. **Polycarp** said the same thing. I say bull. They can have a private fellowship among themselves on their free time. Sit in an empty hall, read their own private Bibles, sing and celebrate, and one of them can even officiate at a Mass. (It doesn’t require a priest if a priest isn’t available. Ditto for Judaism: if you don’t have the full ten men for a ceremony, you’re allowed to get by with fewer. Islam is likewise: if you don’t have a prayer-mat, you pray on the ground.) It is a constitutional violation for the taxpayers to fund all the extra unnecessary trappings of their ceremonies. I’d be okay with an absolutely bare “chapel” which the attendees could then decorate at their own expense. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/59 "2013-05-02T21:46:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Yep, you got it. I am slowly losing my eyesight in my left eye; my right eye is cataracted to the point of near-uselessness. So proofing is very difficult for me. And yes, I did mean to endorse the condemnation, or something like that, when I went back to fix typoes and lost track of the sentence. :o Sending healing and clear-visioned thoughts your way, then. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/60 "2013-05-02T21:54:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So does this mean that, no matter what other services a chaplain might perform for other services, the chaplain for Catholic services has to be Catholic? Yes. Actually, I suppose a Catholic could make do with an Orthodox priest, or a Maronite, I guess, but it would have to be in the Catholic ballpark, i.e., a Eucharistic faith that has maintained the apostolic succession. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298.md?page=4)