# Should chaplains, rabbis, etc be kicked out of the US forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298 "2013-05-02T08:54:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/61 "2013-05-02T21:55:55Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > According to the RCC, can a Muslim officiate mass or grant absolution? No. Nor can a rabbi. Or a Protestant minister. An Orthodox (Christian) priest could, or a priest from one of the uniate Catholic churches (Maronites, for example). ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/62 "2013-05-02T22:06:14Z")
> [@Slypork](#): > > Don’t you remember the episode of _M_A_S_H\* where Father Mulcahy performed a bris with the assistance of a rabbi who transmitted the instructions over the radio? By Jove! I think you’re on to something. Let’s get William Christopher out into the field and everyone can take their spiritual issues to him! ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/63 "2013-05-02T22:31:22Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You know, I find it hard to believe that \*you _of all people are asking these questions. If you can’t hear the exact same tone as "I don’t have anything against you [i[personally_. but we don’t want you tryin’ any of that _queer_ stuff around here!" in the tone of them, I can assure you that others can. There’s a WIDE gulf between being openly gay in the armed forces and having an extra person hired by the government to practice the homosexuality…ooh, that does sound really hot, but that’s what having a chaplain would amount to. A not-only-condoning-but-here’s-a-facilitator type person. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/64 "2013-05-02T22:40:59Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Yes. Actually, I suppose a Catholic could make do with an Orthodox priest, or a Maronite, I guess, but it would have to be in the Catholic ballpark, i.e., a Eucharistic faith that has maintained the apostolic succession. Knew them Episcopalians were good for **something**. . . ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/65 "2013-05-02T23:04:59Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > There’s a WIDE gulf between being openly gay in the armed forces and having an extra person hired by the government to practice the homosexuality…ooh, that does sound really hot, but that’s what having a chaplain would amount to. A not-only-condoning-but-here’s-a-facilitator type person. I was, rather intemperately, speaking to the "keep it in private and don’t let anyone know: aspects. Besides, aren’t at least some chaplains funded by the denomination they belong to? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/66 "2013-05-02T23:13:25Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I was, rather intemperately, speaking to the "keep it in private and don’t let anyone know: aspects. Besides, aren’t at least some chaplains funded by the denomination they belong to? I’m not sure where the “keep it private” thing was gleaned from in my posts. Care to share me where you think I said such a thing as that is not my intent. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/67 "2013-05-03T00:17:28Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > By Jove! I think you’re on to something. Let’s get William Christopher out into the field and everyone can take their spiritual issues to him! I would support clergy in the military if it meant clones of Father Mulcahy. He was one froopy dude. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/68 "2013-05-03T01:18:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I would support clergy in the military if it meant clones of Father Mulcahy. He was one froopy dude. You mean “hoopy frood”, right? 😃 I’ve been Jewish in the Army and the Coast Guard, so I do have some thoughts on this. IMO, military chaplains fulfill 2 roles. 1, as ministers of their particular religion and 2) as sort of social workers/sympathetic ears to all comers. Now, I have no problem with anyone practicing their religion except when they practice it AT me and I don’t want them to. I’ve experienced this from members of the more evangelical Christian denominations. Once I contacted the IG to get a Major (chaplain corps) to back the fuck off because I wasn’t going to become a Christian. Him: “But I want to pray for you, sergeant!” Me: “Go for it, just don’t do it where I have to listen to it.” or “If you want to make yourself useful, can you get me Kosher C-rations?” And there were a couple cases reported at the USAF academy. In one, a LtC was a pastor at some local church and a professor of some subject. To pass his course, he required his students to attend his church services. And in another case, an upperclassman (some sort of cadet sergeant or whatever they have at the USAF academy) misused his authority to repeated berate Jewish underclassmen under his command as “Christ-killers.” And there was more of this going on. This is wrong, imho. On the other hand, in the CG, a protestant chaplain was very helpful in arranging for me to attend sabbath services at a local synagogue. And he searched me out to apologize for not thinking to see what he could do about me attending a Passover seder. This sort of thing makes me think kindly of military chaplains. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/69 "2013-05-03T02:23:12Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Yep, you got it. I am slowly losing my eyesight in my left eye; my right eye is cataracted to the point of near-uselessness. So proofing is very difficult for me. And yes, I did mean to endorse the condemnation, or something like that, when I went back to fix typoes and lost track of the sentence. :o I’m so sorry to hear that. I won’t send prayers but I will hope that you find the necessary medical help to resolve your issues. While it is possible for service members to get together on their own time to read the bible/torah/quran/necronomicon, services do require an officiant. As has been mentioned, preventing the members from practicing their faith is just as much of a constitutional violation as telling them that they all need to sacrifice goats to Odin. As long as no one is standing up and telling the members what/who/how/why to worship there is no problem. And, as I and others have said, the clergy also serve as counselors. My friends didn’t want the stigma of talking to a psychiatrist to appear on their records or even for word to get back to anyone in the chain of command. Talking to a priest was OK and wouldn’t make the security people nervous. Talking to a shrink might make them wonder if you have what it takes to turn the key. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/70 "2013-05-03T02:53:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Knew them Episcopalians were good for **something**. . . I think that the RCC officially says that Anglican ordinations are invalid because Anglican bishops aren’t properly consecrated, or something. Anglicans/Episcopalians do not agree, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/71 "2013-05-03T05:54:02Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I think that the RCC officially says that Anglican ordinations are invalid because Anglican bishops aren’t properly consecrated, or something. Anglicans/Episcopalians do not agree, of course. Um… semi-true. _Most_ but not all are deemed invalid. Basing my comments here on the authority of my source, a woman who completed a course of study in theology at the Pontifical University and always researched her answers, _Apostolicae Curae_ applies to the Church of England, and such churches as derive their succession exclusivel from it. Other Anglican orders, in particular Americans since the time we were in full communion with the Polish National Catholic Church, are examined on a case-by-case basis, ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/72 "2013-05-03T06:14:09Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > 1. The soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines are put in the most stressful situations one can imagine - watching their friends die right next to them, while they are thousands of miles away from home and in a hostile nation. Removing the ability for these soldiers to have accessible religious services would be tantamount to inciting hysteria and rampant fear in a unit. I don’t say that the religion needs to be there for one to be able to deal with war, but that if you ARE religious, having that chaplain can be the difference between having someone who breaks down and one who handles things smoothly. I’d imagine without chaplains, you’d have higher rates of PTSD, and if you have a handful of guys who start freaking out without being able to go through their religious services/rites/counseling, then it can have serious impacts on unit morale. **Fear is contagious in battle.** > > 2. I must stress again: Chaplains are not there to make the military a religious institution or to force feed their beliefs on the group. They are there as counselors and as a a service for those who need them. > > And yes, chaplains go through much training for non-religious counseling, so they know what they’re doing in that regard. Indeed. It might be useful to link to the official citation for the Medal of Honor awarded to Chaplain Joseph Timothy O’Callahan for his actions while serving on the USS _Franklin_ when it became a blazing inferno, was in serious danger of sinking, and was the most heavily damaged US carrier to survive n WW2, with a casualty total of 807 dead. [It reads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_T._O%27Callahan#Medal_of_Honor_citation): > [@](#): > > For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as chaplain on board the U.S.S. Franklin when that vessel was fiercely attacked by enemy Japanese aircraft during offensive operations near Kobe, Japan, on 19 March 1945. A valiant and forceful leader, calmly braving the perilous barriers of flame and twisted metal to aid his men and his ship, Lt. Comdr. O’Callahan groped his way through smoke-filled corridors to the open flight deck and into the midst of violently exploding bombs, shells, rockets, and other armament. With the ship rocked by incessant explosions, with debris and fragments raining down and fires raging in ever-increasing fury, he ministered to the wounded and dying, comforting and encouraging men of all faiths; he organized and led firefighting crews into the blazing inferno on the flight deck; he directed the jettisoning of live ammunition and the flooding of the magazine; he manned a hose to cool hot, armed bombs rolling dangerously on the listing deck, continuing his efforts, despite searing, suffocating smoke which forced men to fall back gasping and imperiled others who replaced them. Serving with courage, fortitude, and deep spiritual strength, Lt. Cmdr. O’Callahan inspired the gallant officers and men of the Franklin to fight heroically and with profound faith in the face of almost certain death and to return their stricken ship to port. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/73 "2013-05-03T06:48:25Z")
In World War 2 some Catholics (not sure which army) refused to fight on a Friday but other than that things weren’t so bad. The US Navy still celebrates The Three Chaplains Day, right? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/74 "2013-05-03T06:56:06Z")
isn’t it [Four Chaplins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Chaplains)? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/75 "2013-05-03T07:02:28Z")
Baptist, Methodist, Jewish, Catholic. Thanks. Why is my memory going? I’m only 50. Read about it in Reader’s Digest. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/76 "2013-05-03T08:49:36Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Yes. Actually, I suppose a Catholic could make do with an Orthodox priest, or a Maronite, I guess, but it would have to be in the Catholic ballpark, i.e., a Eucharistic faith that has maintained the apostolic succession. Maronites are in communion with Rome so it shouldn’t be an issue for Roman Catholics. I’m an atheist, and the military chaplaincy is the solitary exception I’m willing to make on the separation of church & state because of the unique nature of military service. I am however in favour of a zero-tolerance policy for anything resembling proselytizing and chaplains should be required to service members of all faiths and of none. If they can’t be relied upon to provide completely non-religious counselling services then the military should provide counsellors who can. And none of this nonsense where religious servicemembers are given time off to attend services while non-religious servicemembers can stuck with work detail. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/77 "2013-05-03T09:26:38Z")
IIRC one of the more challenging duties of military chaplains is to help soldiers\* deal with the morality of killing. Many feel understandably conflicted by the belief that it is wrong to kill and yet being in a position where killing is frequently necessary. Chaplains are trained to mitigate these moral qualms, although I suspect Scriptural integrity often suffers collateral damage in these discussions. \*Sorry for using “soldiers” as a shorthand for “all people in the military”. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298/78 "2013-05-10T09:38:46Z")
I’m reviving this slightly moribund thread with a [Rick Santorum quotation](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/07/1207419/-MUST-SEE-Jon-Stewart-on-massive-nuttery-at-NRA-convention) from the recent NRA convention in my fair city. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > RICK SANTORUM (5/3/2013): Why are they going after chaplains in the military, saying they can’t evangelize and prostelicize (sic)? > > \*(audience laughter) > \* > My guess is that word does not mean what I think it might mean. Again, very important, the war on Christians there, but getting back to guns? Well, yes. This is from a _Daily Kos_ article on Jon Stewart’s coverage of the event; specifically, the section where Stewart pointed out all the non-gun-related issues raised by the speakers. I’m sure the whole speech is available elsewhere but I’m not a glutton for punishment. (Just as I managed to stay away from the convention center during that period.) Relevant to this thread: Military chaplains minister to members of their faith; they also counsel service members of all faiths–or none. Santorum is objecting because he wants chaplains to able to convert nonbelievers; although most of the objectionable evangelization has been done by officers & cadets who were _not_ chaplains… Gosh, Santorum was wrong. Surprise! At least even he knows that nobody has been threatening to kick chaplains out of the service… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chaplains-rabbis-etc-be-kicked-out-of-the-us-forces/657298.md?page=3)