# Should Charles Manson have been found guilty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691 "2015-06-16T18:44:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/41 "2015-06-16T22:23:00Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Your blog was mentioned in the OP and you mentioned your blog in post #10. I’m beginning to see your blog as, possibly, the real issue here. And I’m beginning to see myself as, possibly, your real issue. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/42 "2015-06-16T22:32:42Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/43 "2015-06-16T22:39:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Whether the attorney’s testimony about what his former client said is hearsay depends on why it was offered into evidence. It was presented during the penalty phase. And, in fact, Manson himself objected to it. I’m actually not sure if there is a relaxed evidence standard during the penalty phase, and it may in fact have been improper testimony, but I was just providing examples of “testimony” in support of Manson’s presence at the 2nd crime scene. **Tapu** seemed to be under the impression that nobody ever said that at the trial, and it was all invented out of whole cloth. [QUOTE=Tapu] You can certainly characterize me that way if you wish. It’s no reason to accept everything you’ve ever been fed, all your life, about this particular event in history. Maybe I’m just an idiot. [/QUOTE] Isn’t there a rule against calling someone an idiot in this forum? 😃 I’m happy to be a skeptic; I started the thread because, due in part to your own comments, I was shocked to discover that there were those out there who challenged the official story. Not because “the official story” is automatically sacrosanct, but because I had never encountered any reasonable basis to doubt its veracity. Unfortunately, though, I haven’t heard or seen anything from you to give me pause. All you seem to have is just general “disbelief”. Forgive me for thinking that a person who has blogged about the murders would be full of arguments and persuasion in support of their side. All I seem to get from you is just a general disdain for “the establishment”. Is it because Manson ruined “hippie-dom”? He made it scary to hitchhike? He exposed a dark side to communes espousing “free love”? Look, although I wasn’t born until the late 1970’s, I consider myself hippie-friendly. I have no objection to hallucinogenic drugs, orgies, or communal living. I happen to think that a lot of the hand-wringing in the trial about LSD is in fact overblown. But Manson was a real psychopath, and he really did manipulate and abuse a bunch of wayward young people, including by orchestrating several murders. I, for one, will do a happy dance when he’s dead, and that’s something I would almost never say. He is no clown - he’s a sick, demented, heinous individual, and his crimes are some of the worst I’ve read about. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/44 "2015-06-16T22:44:13Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > And I’m beginning to see myself as, possibly, your real issue. If you fail to make your case for Manson here, don’t you also fail there? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/45 "2015-06-16T23:14:50Z")
I don’t know what to say to you, man. I can’t really “fail.” I’m saying, there might be interesting ways to look at the Manson Family Murders as Societal Myth. If you say, “Nuh-uh,” I don’t really “fail.” The interesting discussion, for me, is not about murder. It’s about how these particular murders have become a construct rather than a set of facts. It’s got psychological, sociological, media, legal, etc, etc, aspects to think about. You know what? I bet I should have just put A DIFFERENT TITLE title on it!! (In Defense of Manson was a rhetorical trick, or more a “catchy” headline." It references my casual observations that most people have no idea that Manson wasn’t convicted of a murder.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/46 "2015-06-16T23:17:05Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I can’t really “fail.” Evidence seems to indicate otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/47 "2015-06-16T23:17:18Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re asking of me, but it doesn’t matter because I cannot possibly “take ‘Helter Skelter’ as ‘official’”. Who would, in a serious discussion? It’s a mass market book designed to sell. It’s not “official”–surely that’s OBVIOUS. Okay, I was trying to make it easy on you. Starting with whatever set of documents you regard as the “official version,” find and explain one contradictory fact you can back up with verifiable evidence. Since you had (and, I assume, read) fifty-odd books on the case, wrote a blog, and are passionately defending your position, I assume that coming up with that one fact should be quite easy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/48 "2015-06-16T23:22:28Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > Watson is convicted of the direct murder of all victims in the Tate/La Bianca killings. Watson’s book, “Will you kill for me?”, details in his own words how he killed each victim. All the women along on the nights of the murders testify to the same basic account of the events–that Tex killed the people. I don’t think there is any doubt in the minds of anyone on the side of the prosecution or the defense that Tex Watson personally killed everyone who was murdered those two nights. > > How’s that? 🙂 I don’t think that’s an issue in contention. The question isn’t whether Watson committed the murders. It’s whether he instigated the murders or carried out the murders at Manson’s direction. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/49 "2015-06-16T23:26:25Z")
Tapu, I’m willing to listen to alternative theories and consider them. But so far, all you’re offering as evidence seems to be the assumption that the official story must be false and therefore an alternative explanation has to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/50 "2015-06-16T23:46:32Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > . . . My whole point about this is: What you think you (or anyone) know about the “Manson Family Murders” may not be right or true because there was a ton of manipulation by the establishment and the willing media. The “real” story is lost. The myth grows beyond its initial conception and justification. How do you know this? If the real story is lost…how do you know what it is? What is the foundation of your claims? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Tapu, I’m willing to listen to alternative theories and consider them. But so far, all you’re offering as evidence seems to be the assumption that the official story must be false and therefore an alternative explanation has to exist. This: all we are given are declarations, but no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/51 "2015-06-17T00:13:04Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > It references my casual observations that most people have no idea that Manson wasn’t convicted of a murder. This was 46 years ago. Sadly, I read about much more deadly violence several times a week (mostly in war zones). There is no reason to suppose someone to be generally ill-informed does not know about Charles Manson. I only know one side of the story, the one I got from reading this book: > **[Amazon.com: Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson eBook : Guinn, Jeff:...](https://www.amazon.com/Manson-Life-Times-Charles-ebook/dp/B00A2813WE)** > > Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson - Kindle edition by Guinn, Jeff. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading Manson: The Life and... Author Jeff Guinn did give me the impression that Manson was an unusually dangerous criminal. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/52 "2015-06-17T00:15:43Z")
I don’t know how to make clear the \*point \*of my blog piece. And I’m not inclined to try to back up definitively any particular claim or set of claims I make in it. I’m sorry. I have failed all of you. I wish I could give back the time you wasted reading the post. I really mean this. I shouldn’t have shared it here–now or before. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/53 "2015-06-18T18:42:18Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I don’t know how to make clear the \*point \*of my blog piece. And I’m not inclined to try to back up definitively any particular claim or set of claims I make in it. I’m sorry. I have failed all of you. I wish I could give back the time you wasted reading the post. I really mean this. I shouldn’t have shared it here–now or before. Maybe you should rethink your blog. If you can’t convince the people here in a message board dialogue, how do you expect to convince readers of a blog in a one way conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/54 "2015-06-18T20:25:24Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/55 "2015-06-18T20:27:56Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I don’t know how to make clear the \*point \*of my blog piece. And I’m not inclined to try to back up definitively any particular claim or set of claims I make in it. I’m sorry. I have failed all of you. I wish I could give back the time you wasted reading the post. I really mean this. I shouldn’t have shared it here–now or before. Stop acting like a martyr. You raised a topic and people are asking questions about it. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/56 "2015-06-19T07:26:47Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > No, a man named Bobby Beausoleil was convicted of that. I’ve seen it attributed to Manson before, though. You’ve seen Gary Hinman’s murder attributed to Manson because Manson was the mastermind and a participant. > **[Charles Manson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson#Hinman_murder)** > > Charles Milles Manson (né Maddox; November 12, 1934 – November 19, 2017) was an American criminal, cult leader, and musician who led the Manson Family, a cult based in California in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Some cult members committed a series of at least nine murders at four locations in July and August 1969. In 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. The prosecution conte... > [@](#): > > On July 25, 1969, Manson sent sometime Family member Bobby Beausoleil along with Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins to the house of acquaintance Gary Hinman, to persuade him to turn over money Manson thought Hinman had inherited.[5]:75–77[46][49] The three held the uncooperative Hinman hostage for two days, during which Manson showed up with a sword to slash his ear. After that, Beausoleil stabbed Hinman to death, ostensibly on Manson’s instruction. Before leaving the Topanga Canyon residence, Beausoleil, or one of the women, used Hinman’s blood to write “Political piggy” on the wall and to draw a panther paw, a Black Panther symbol.[5]:33, 91–96, 99–113[50] > > In magazine interviews of 1981 and 1998–99,[51][52] Beausoleil would say he went to Hinman’s to recover money paid to Hinman for drugs that had supposedly been bad; he added that Brunner and Atkins, unaware of his intent, went along idly, merely to visit Hinman. On the other hand, Atkins, in her 1977 autobiography, wrote that Manson directly told Beausoleil, Brunner, and her to go to Hinman’s and get the supposed inheritance—$21,000. She said Manson had told her privately, two days earlier, that, if she wanted to “do something important”, she could kill Hinman and get his money.[49] Beausoleil was arrested on August 6, 1969, after he had been caught driving Hinman’s car. Police found the murder weapon in the tire well.[5]:28–38 Two days later, Manson told Family members at Spahn Ranch, “Now is the time for Helter Skelter.”[5]:258–269[46][53] See also: > **[Bobby Beausoleil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Beausoleil)** > > Robert Kenneth Beausoleil (born November 6, 1947) is an American murderer and associate of Charles Manson and members of his communal Manson Family. He was convicted and sentenced to death for the July 27, 1969, fatal stabbing of Gary Hinman, who had befriended him and other Manson associates. Beausoleil was later granted commutation to a lesser sentence of life imprisonment, after the Supreme Court of California issued a ruling that invalidated all death sentences issued in California prior to... > [@](#): > > Accompanying Beausoleil that night were Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner, both later involved in other murders and crimes. Beausoleil claims that Hinman supplied him with a batch of bad mescaline that Beausoleil in turn sold to the Straight Satans motorcycle gang. When the bikers demanded their money back, Manson ordered Beausoleil to Hinman’s residence to get the money. Hinman is said to have refused to pay saying, “I don’t have any money to give you”. Beausoleil called Manson back at Spahn Ranch to tell him that no money was forthcoming. Beausoleil, Atkins, and Brunner then held him captive in his own home in an attempt to convince him to refund the money. > > Manson arrived and proceeded to slice off a part of Hinman’s ear with a sword; Atkins and Brunner stitched it up with dental floss afterwards. Manson then ordered Beausoleil to kill Hinman and told him to make it look as if the crime had been committed by black revolutionaries, as he had been predicting to his Family that a race war was imminent. Beausoleil stabbed Hinman to death as Hinman chanted a Buddhist chant. Afterwards, he wrote the words “Political piggy” on a wall in Hinman’s blood in an attempt to lead police to believe the murder was done by a group of radicals. After he wrote the words, Beausoleil dipped his hand in Hinman’s blood and left a paw print, symbolizing The Black Panthers, in order to mislead the investigators of Hinman’s murder. Beausoleil was subsequently arrested on August 6, 1969 after falling asleep in Hinman’s broken down Fiat alongside the highway at Cuesta Grade, a steep segment of U.S. Route 101 between San Luis Obispo and Atascadero. It’s been suggested that the timing of the Helter Skelter operation, along with writing things in blood at the other crime scenes, was an attempt to get Beausoleil off by throwing the blame for Hinman’s murder on Black Panthers, with the idea that Beausoleil couldn’t be guilty of killing Hinman since he was in jail at the time of the other two attacks. It’s also possible that the timing was because Manson shot a black drug dealer who he thought was a Black Panther. (In fact, the dealer, Bernard Crowe, was not a Panther and didn’t die.) Manson set up guards at his camp because he thought “Blackie” was going to come and retaliate. But regardless of other events, Manson was talking about his stupid race war for months before that event, so who knows. Bottom line: any attempt to suggest that Manson was simply an innocent bystander will require actual hard evidence. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/57 "2015-06-19T14:27:51Z")
Manson was not as crazy as most people think he is. The Helter Skelter theory was a cover for what really happened. He told his followers that one day they would rule the world after a race war but that was mostly just to bind them to him so he could have followers that would do whatever he wanted. The group needed money to buy drugs and food and was running low so he had Watson steal 2,000 dollars from a black drug dealer they knew. The drug dealer started threatening Watson to get the money back and claimed he was affiliated with the Black Panthers. This frightened Manson who devised a plot to have Watson kill the drug dealer. They met with the drug dealer but Watson chickened out and Manson shot the drug dealer. After this Manson become paranoid about the Black Panthers coming after him. He starts to talk more the upcoming race war and the need for violence so his followers will be ready in case the panthers come for him. He then hears about Hinman receiving an inheritance and takes several of his followers to get the money from him. They kidnap and torture him to try to get him to give them the money but he will not and they kill him. They stage the scene to make it look like the Black Panthers did it so they will have to deal with the police instead of coming after Manson. The staging fools no one and one of Manson’s followers is arrested. Manson is now freaked out that his follower will testify against him and he comes up with the idea to make it seem like other houses of the wealthy are being broken into by the Black Panthers so the police will let his follower go. He tells his followers to go to the Tate house and kill everyone there to start Helter Skelter. He is worried about how some of the victims almost get away and so goes to the next house himself to tie up the victims before they are killed. None of the killings do anything to get his follower out of jail or put heat on the Black Panthers, he and his followers are arrested for car theft which scares him even more and so he takes his followers and they move out of LA after killing a ranch hand who Manson thought turned them in to the police. The crazy Helter Skelter stuff was just what he told his brain washed, drug addled followers to get them to kill for him. The actual motive for the murders were more pedestrian, money and to keep out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/58 "2015-06-19T14:57:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The Helter Skelter theory was a cover for what really happened. Well… it all comes down to whether or not you think Manson believed what he was telling his followers. Like all “prophets,” I’d bet the truthy-truth lies somewhere between really believing all that race war crap and utterly cynical manipulation for his benefit. It may have been cynical manipulation because there are people who get off on manipulating others, sometimes right up to the Manson/Jones level. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/59 "2015-06-19T15:18:54Z")
Tapu, I hope you don’t think I’m piling on, but you are woefully ignorant of the facts of this case. > [@tapu](#): > > It references my casual observations that most people have no idea that Manson wasn’t convicted of a murder.) Yes, he [was](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/manson-3-girls-found-guilty/). Under California law, if a person is part of a conspiracy, then they are _directly_ responsible for the crimes of their co-conspirators. When Tex Watson shot and killed Steve Parent, every member of the group was guilty of first degree murder. Including Manson. The challenge was proving that he was part of the conspiracy despite his not being physically present at the scene. If you think that not being physically present is a key distinction, you’ve just absolved anybody who hires a hitman. > [@](#): > > [Didn’t Manson murder a musician named Gary Hinman?]No, a man named Bobby Beausoleil was convicted of that. I’ve seen it attributed to Manson before, though. Manson was also found [guilty](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/charles-manson-convicted-of-shea-hinman-slayings/)of first degree murder in the deaths of Shorty Shea and Gary Hinman. As before, by being found guilty of conspiracy, he was concomitantly guilty of the crimes of his co-conspirators. If you insist on parsing this distinction, then do you also think that Al Capone (or, say, Adolph Hitler - that’s right; I went there :D) was railroaded? > [@](#): > > Do you believe Charlie could stop the Prosecutor’s watch? For real? You seem to be under the impression that Bugliosi believed that Manson stopped his watch, because he told the story in his book. Bugliosi was talking about how creepy Manson was, but he chalked it up to coincidence. This was a man who wrote a book challenging the evidence for God; Vince Bugliosi did not believe in magic. > [@](#): > > Against that, you’ve got Charlie saying to Susan Atkins, “Do something witchy.” You’ve utterly ignored the [testimony](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/linda-kasabian-free-to-go-to-wilderness/)of Linda Kasabian, the Prosecution’s star witness, who testified for 18 days. And the testimony of [Barbara Hoyt](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/witness-repeats-clan-talked-of-tate-deaths/). And [Juan Flynn](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/manson-admitted-murders-former-ranch-hand-says/). And [Ronnie Howard](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/cellmate-of-susan-doubted-kill-story/). And [Gregg Jackobson](http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/pal-says-manson-didnt-believe-in-right-or-wrong/). And I could go on. The trial lasted 9 and a half months, and was (for its time) the most expensive trial ever, but you think the only evidence against Manson was an instruction to do something “witchy”?? > [@](#): > > What you think you (or anyone) know about the “Manson Family Murders” may not be right or true because there was a ton of manipulation by the establishment and the willing media. I don’t think you are even looking at my cites. They are newspaper accounts from the trial that were written at the time it took place. Many are from [Mary Neiswender](http://www.presstelegram.com/technology/20120407/p-t-reporter-had-a-hotline-to-manson), a reporter for the Long Beach Independent Press-Telegram, who once talked with Manson on the phone, and later exchanged letters with him. These aren’t embellished stories with loads of spin; they are quotes from witnesses, attorneys, and judges. Sure, all reporting is subjective, but this is live, on-the-ground stuff, not some propaganda commentary about the meaning of what took place. Speaking of reporting, I have a question about statements on your blog. (And, to all reading this, I am the one who has brought it up far more than Tapu, although I only found it because she linked to it on the original thread regarding Bugliosi’s death; I don’t think she’s aggressively promoting it): In your discussion of Tex Watson, you say that he > [@](#): > > started and continues to run the non-profit ministry that he, as administrator, gets a handsome salary from. Lots of people support Tex and his Christian work, and he can buy lots of great stuff with his money. If the commissary doesn’t have what he wants they will order it, “within reason.” Where does that come from? From Watson’s own [website](http://www.aboundinglove.org/main/2-about/19-faq-s) (which is operated by others; he doesn’t have access to a computer, but writes content on paper and mails it to the people who maintain it), he says that he can’t profit off of his ministry and recommends that donations be given to other charities. I’m not saying that I take his word over yours, but I’m just wondering what your source is? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691/60 "2015-06-19T15:29:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Manson was not as crazy as most people think he is. The Helter Skelter theory was a cover for what really happened. He told his followers that one day they would rule the world after a race war but that was mostly just to bind them to him so he could have followers that would do whatever he wanted. > The group needed money to buy drugs and food and was running low so he had Watson steal 2,000 dollars from a black drug dealer they knew. The drug dealer started threatening Watson to get the money back and claimed he was affiliated with the Black Panthers. This frightened Manson who devised a plot to have Watson kill the drug dealer. They met with the drug dealer but Watson chickened out and Manson shot the drug dealer. After this Manson become paranoid about the Black Panthers coming after him. He starts to talk more the upcoming race war and the need for violence so his followers will be ready in case the panthers come for him. > He then hears about Hinman receiving an inheritance and takes several of his followers to get the money from him. They kidnap and torture him to try to get him to give them the money but he will not and they kill him. They stage the scene to make it look like the Black Panthers did it so they will have to deal with the police instead of coming after Manson. The staging fools no one and one of Manson’s followers is arrested. > Manson is now freaked out that his follower will testify against him and he comes up with the idea to make it seem like other houses of the wealthy are being broken into by the Black Panthers so the police will let his follower go. He tells his followers to go to the Tate house and kill everyone there to start Helter Skelter. He is worried about how some of the victims almost get away and so goes to the next house himself to tie up the victims before they are killed. None of the killings do anything to get his follower out of jail or put heat on the Black Panthers, he and his followers are arrested for car theft which scares him even more and so he takes his followers and they move out of LA after killing a ranch hand who Manson thought turned them in to the police. > The crazy Helter Skelter stuff was just what he told his brain washed, drug addled followers to get them to kill for him. The actual motive for the murders were more pedestrian, money and to keep out of prison. I think this is an excellent synopsis, and makes a lot of sense. It doesn’t invalidate the argument that Manson was preaching Helter Skelter nonsense to his Family; rather, it explains why he was doing so. > [@](#): > > Well… it all comes down to whether or not you think Manson believed what he was telling his followers. Like all “prophets,” I’d bet the truthy-truth lies somewhere between really believing all that race war crap and utterly cynical manipulation for his benefit. > > It may have been cynical manipulation because there are people who get off on manipulating others, sometimes right up to the Manson/Jones level. Even now, 45 years later, he’s never mellowed, repented, or shown any sort of remorse. I’m inclined to believe he never believed his own rhetoric, and was just engaged in cynical manipulation, but I’m not sure if his ongoing behavior supports or invalidates that belief. He’s still as mean, narcissistic, and delusional as ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-charles-manson-have-been-found-guilty/722691.md?page=4)