### Author:  [@Barking\_Spider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Spider)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/21 "2002-04-27T03:58:13Z")
Having read your definition, and 3 other definitions for “fascism”, within the half hour, I must retract my statement that even leftwing governments can be "fascist. I had always considered it to be a blanket definition for any totalitarian, far left or far right, government. I see now it only applies to the far right regimes.
---
### Author:  [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/22 "2002-04-27T13:50:27Z")
I know that dictionaries don’t win debates…
…but then I’m not the one debating:)
Taking this thread on a slight hijack, according to Merriam -Webster, Fascism is defined as:
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control \
I guess I have always used the term “communist” to mean pretty much the exact same thing when I was talking about someone on the left and “fascist” when talking aboiut someone on the right. However, I never interpreted “fascist” as being exclusively a term for the right.
---
### Author:  [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/23 "2002-04-27T14:21:43Z")
You can use “fascism” to mean “authoritation” (and therfore applicable to the Left) or you can use it more specifically to mean Mussolini-esque. The issue, as with any term with a range of meanings, is consistency within an argument.
.
---
### Author:  [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/24 "2002-04-27T15:02:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by nicky_
> \*\*You can use “fascism” to mean “authoritation” (and therfore applicable to the Left) … \*\*
I think that by now we are aware of the vaguely correct, but somewhat imprecise adjectival use of fascist, the issue here is the specific context that young **Barking Spider** uses it in. some of us have chosen to deal with that issue in a more outspoken manner [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2041606)
Can we end the hijack now?
---
### Author:  [@Barking\_Spider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Spider)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/25 "2002-04-27T18:37:01Z")
Sparculees, I am still amazed that in Europe, a person can prosecuted for trivializing the Holocaust.
Here’s a couple question. If a person opines that only 4 million were killed in the Holocaust, instead of the 6 million which seems to be the accepted number, Could that person be punished for stating that opinion? Also, if a person opines that only 2 million died in the Holocoust, would he be punished more severely than the person claiming only 4 million?
Also, since Stalin and the communists killed far more than the Nazis’ did, Is it also against the law to praise Stalinism, communism, or far left politics? Is it against the law to be a member of the Communist party?
---
### Author:  [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/26 "2002-04-27T19:39:39Z")
Good points **Barking Spider**.
I’m starting too like the tone you have adopted on this issue. It does however have very little to do with the thread at hand and I would suggest that you start a separate one on this subject. I’d be more than happy to join the debate. If I were you I’d take the text from your last post and just turn that into the OP, maybe add something about the background to the thread.
---
### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [April 27, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/27 "2002-04-27T22:34:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Barking Spider \*
> \*\*Thanks for your response, but I have to question why you say Leftist regimes cannot be fascist, that only Right wing regimes can be fascist. \*\*
Can a Right Wing Regime be communist?
No, it cannot. By definition, communism is on the far left.
By definition, Fascism is on the far right.
:rolleyes:
Go back to school. Sign up for a political history course.
---
### Author:  [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/28 "2002-04-28T00:00:03Z")
4 million dead is at the lower end of the estimated death toll.
2 million dead is claiming a conspiracy to exaggerate.
---
### Author:  [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/29 "2002-04-28T01:04:46Z")
le pen said that the Holocaust was just “a detail”.
he wasn’t threatened with arrest, but was sued for his remark to be withdrawn.
and just to let you know, the holocaust in europe is something that can be trivialised.
thats not to say that it is trivialized elsewhere, btw, before anyone takes my words the wrong way.
---
### Author:  [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2002, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/30 "2002-04-28T01:25:04Z")
ehem, yes the correct quote would be ‘detiail’, sloppy paraphrase by me. But, the Munich prosecutor actually filed for prison, the court settled for an apology and fined a non disclosed amount in June 99. The prosecutor then appealed on grounds that his apology was not enough. The appeal is as far as I know still pending. I haven’t checked the latest status in a while, but I will and I’ll get back to you on it.
But that’s a detail…case remains that he is bad, bad news for Europe.
---
### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/31 "2002-04-28T01:41:19Z")
From what I understand, Europe is still very sensitive about the Holocaust-particularly France and Germany.
Not to mention-isn’t Le Pen’s party have its origins in the Vichy regime?
---
### Author:  [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827/32 "2002-04-29T03:29:27Z")
Guin:
No, Le Pen’s party was not founded during Vichy, but it does have certain connections. The slimey fuck does have connexions with the OAS (Organisation de l’Armée Secrète). I refer you to:
Historical Background (Algerie)
[http://myweb.worldnet.net/~larane/histoire05130.htm](http://myweb.worldnet.net/~larane/histoire05130.htm)
> **[L'histoire expurgée de la guerre d'Algérie](https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/02/MASCHINO/1903)**
>
> Accès libre // par Maurice T. Maschino (février 2001)
Le Pen’s position during the campaign
[http://fr.news.yahoo.com/020323/85/2iyt7.html](http://fr.news.yahoo.com/020323/85/2iyt7.html) and recently in context
[http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2000/03/CAMUS/13413](http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2000/03/CAMUS/13413)
Of particular note it the analysis at the end of this report by the French parliament:
[assemblee-nat.fr](http://www.assemblee-nat.fr/dossiers/dps/r1622p03.asp) you will find Le Pen, while not entering directly into the OAS conspiracy was certainly a fellow traveler. I quote
> [@](#):
>
> Les mouvements créés par Jean-Marie Le Pen après son expérience poujadiste, le Front National combattant et le Front National pour l’Algérie française, ont été dissous respectivement le 23 décembre 1960 et le 28 avril 1961. Leur fondateur et animateur n’a pas alors rejoint l’OAS mais a organisé les Comités Tixier-Vignancour à l’occasion de l’élection présidentielle de 1965. Roger Holeindre, qui lui, est passé par l’OAS, en a organisé le service d’ordre
And further,
> [@](#):
>
> Le Front National pour l’unité française (FN) a été créé le 5 octobre 1972, à l’initiative des dirigeants d’Ordre nouveau qui voulaient présenter des candidats aux élections. Jean-Marie Le Pen a été choisi pour en être le président, car il était le plus à même de fédérer les principaux courants de l’extrême-droite française, issus de Vichy et de la collaboration, du poujadisme et de l’activisme étudiant dont il a lui-même été en tant que président de la Corpo des étudiants de droit de Paris.
while of further note, the roots in the Ordre reflect on the FN’s ‘democratic’ instincts:
> [@](#):
>
> Une tentative de regroupement a donné lieu à la création, le 15 décembre 1969, d’Ordre nouveau. Ce mouvement, animé par Jean-François Galvaire, François Brigneau, Alain Robert et François Duprat, comprenait 3 000 militants actifs issus des commandos d’Occident et du GUD, souvent équipés avec casques, boucliers à croix celtique, barres de fer et cocktails Molotov. Des rituels néo-nazis ont aussi eu lieu.
and further,
> [@](#):
>
> Le 21 juin 1973, à l’occasion d’une réunion publique d’Ordre Nouveau " contre l’immigration sauvage " à la Mutualité à Paris, des affrontements violents se sont produits avec des militants de la Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire (LCR), faisant de nombreux blessés. Menant une perquisition au siège d’Ordre Nouveau, rue des Lombards, la police a découvert 24 manches de pioche, 41 barres de fer et 31 perches de bambou affûtées. A la suite de ce grave incident, Ordre nouveau a été dissous le 28 juin 1973, en même temps que la LCR.
I don’t particularly feel like translating these, I am sure you can all avail yourselves of a dicco or an autotranslator should curiosity so move you.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-chirac-debate-jean-marie-le-pen/105827.md?page=1)