# Should Christians apologize for the Oslo killings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695 "2011-07-29T02:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/41 "2011-07-29T22:05:23Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I was trying to make a joke based on classic Der Thris saying that nothing bad an atheist does can be atributed to his atheism and that all the bad things (and none of the good) a Chrsitian does is because he’s a Christian. My sides are oddly not splitting. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/42 "2011-07-29T22:07:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I was trying to make a joke based on classic Der Thris saying that nothing bad an atheist does can be atributed to his atheism and that all the bad things (and none of the good) a Chrsitian does is because he’s a Christian. Yeah, sure. :rolleyes: You posted a “joke” that just happens to be something claimed by the believers in dead seriousness all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/43 "2011-07-29T22:27:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m living on a _continent_ that is majority Christian due to the mass slaughter of most of the original inhabitants and the forced conversion of many of the survivors, as well as the importation of slaves with in part the stated goal of converting them. If I was wrong, I _wouldn’t be here_. Nor would all the Christians surrounding me. > . This may be true of Mexico (including the territory it lost in the Mexican War), but is not close to being true for the rest of North America. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/44 "2011-07-30T01:19:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, sure. :rolleyes: You posted a “joke” that just happens to be something claimed by the believers in dead seriousness all the time. And you just proved his point. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/45 "2011-07-30T01:42:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And you just proved his point. :rolleyes: Nonsense. I just pointed out that attempts to equate atheism and communism are a standard way of smearing atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/46 "2011-07-30T02:17:58Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > I constantly hear conservatives complaining that Muslims in general condone terrorist attacks because they don’t routinely publicly condemn them(which, as an aside, is just [not](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1690624.stm) [true](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1969662,00.html)) You constantly hear people (not just conservatives) complaining about Muslim driven attacks because of the current phenomenon of worldwide attacks in the name of Islam. It’s not a couple of random events committed by a Muslim over the course of a year. It is a phenomenon consisting of many many events in the course of a year and they are committed specifically in the name of Islam. > [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > One of my answers has always been, why should they feel the need to? Muslims I have known have no more connection with terrorists than American Protestant Christians have with the [Lord’s Resistance Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army). I don’t think peaceful Christians should feel any need to apologize for them, or the IRA, or pedophile priests, or Breivik for that matter. Of course there Muslims with no connection with terrorism. The majority do not. That doesn’t belay the reality of a small percentage of Muslims making the front page (any percentage of a billion is a lot of people). We just stopped another Ft Hood shooter. It’s a big problem. > [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Now you have O’Reilly conveniently slicing Breivik away from the rest of Christianity by claiming he is not a Christian, yet I could not imagine him saying terrorists claiming to be Muslims are not true Muslims. Committing a crime as a Muslim is different than specifically committing a crime in the name of Islam. The same applies to Christians or any other demographic group. > [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Conservatives always want to [tack](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=538714) [on](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2380524/posts) the adjective “Muslim” in front of a terrorist when it is a Muslim, but refuse to do the same with Breivik, a Christian. > > So are you Christian? Do you feel the need to apologize for and/or condemn Breivik’s actions? Do you apply the same logic to Muslims? If there is a difference, why? If Breivik did this in the name of Christianity and is part of a group that commits similar crimes on the same scale then we will absolutely be screaming bloody murder about radical Christians. Currently we are bitching about Fred Phelp’s crusade against the gay community. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/47 "2011-07-30T02:22:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You constantly hear people (not just conservatives) complaining about Muslim driven attacks because of the current phenomenon of worldwide attacks in the name of Islam. It’s not a couple of random events committed by a Muslim over the course of a year. It is a phenomenon consisting of many many events in the course of a year and they are committed specifically in the name of Islam. I don’t think you’ve really addressed\*\* I\_K\_N’s \*\*point there. It was not about people complaining about attacks; it was about people complaining about the lack of Muslims routinely publically condemning them. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/48 "2011-07-30T02:27:43Z")
No matter how twisted Breivik is, he didn’t invoke the name of a deity or a religious concept during his killing spree. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/49 "2011-07-30T02:46:25Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t think you’ve really addressed\*\* I\_K\_N’s \*\*point there. It was not about people complaining about attacks; it was about people complaining about the lack of Muslims routinely publically condemning them. The debate on this board was always about the role of the religion and it’s influence in the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/50 "2011-07-30T02:57:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > No matter how twisted Breivik is, he didn’t invoke the name of a deity or a religious concept during his killing spree. Wow, I’m impressed by the fact that you speak Norwegian and happy that you escaped alive from the island. I was misinformed and thought that [Welcome spittoon.org - BlueHost.com](http://www.spittoon.org/archives/10273:) > [@](#): > > Breivik claims that he acted on behalf of an organisation called the Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici (PCCTS – the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon) indicated that he was doing with religious motives. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/51 "2011-07-30T03:38:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. I just pointed out that attempts to equate atheism and communism are a standard way of smearing atheism. Smearing atheism? Poor atheism, it’s not going to sleep well tonight. Can you smear a bunch of chemicals residing in some people’s brains, because ideas are nothing more than that. Soon, the Krebbs cycle will bring libel charges against me, sure. I don’t think anyone is equating them, simply pointing out that communism is an atheistic idea, held by atheists, and used against theists for being thesits. Of course atheism doesn’t make anyone do anything so talking about morality with a concept as devoid of morality as Thai food is stupid. It is clear that nothing bad has ever or will ever happen in the name of ahteism even if the person doing the bad thing clearly states it (no-true-Scotsmanness), so what’s the point? Your righteous indignation is so nice I feel guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/52 "2011-07-30T04:08:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The debate on this board was always about the role of the religion and it’s influence in the attacks. That’s true, but it’s still not what \*\*I\_K\_N’s \*\*point there was. Given that each of your points in response to your quotes of them were responses to those particular quotes, I don’t think it’s unreasonable of me to point out that that one wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/53 "2011-07-30T04:35:26Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Smearing atheism? Poor atheism, it’s not going to sleep well tonight. Can you smear a bunch of chemicals residing in some people’s brains, because ideas are nothing more than that. Soon, the Krebbs cycle will bring libel charges against me, sure. Disingenuity aside, can we assume you meant to say something negative about atheism and atheists? It’s my understanding that oftentimes a critical remark about any particular “ism” is by implication extended to those who adhere to that particular “ism”. An an incidental note, I object to definitions that describe atheism as “a lack of belief in God”, on the basis of accuracy. The literal meaning of the term is simply “without theism”, which more reasonably applies to religions in general, not all of which incorporate a “God”. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/54 "2011-07-30T04:54:26Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Has any Arab/Turk/Muslim leader apologised for capturing the Holy Land or Constantinople? Twowrong don’t make a right, but as you said John Paul apologised and that apology was received with contempt. It’s no use apologising to people who only want you to humiliate yourself and will still hate you. Apology is not humiliation if it is genuine and contrite, on the contrary it is humble and opens new inroads and paradigms for both the wronged and the perpetrator. Some people might have received it with contempt, but I’m sure the gesture was genuine and might have acted as a powerful and mitigating message to the cultures warring in this era of the “New Crusade”. In these thousands of years old conflicts, occaasionally ground must be given in a diplomatic way for any progress to be made… I mean, I heard a Jewish Symphony just played a Wagner Concert in Germany. That’s some progress there and not at the pace of a millenial scale… ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/55 "2011-07-30T05:00:08Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Apology is not humiliation if it is genuine and contrite, on the contrary it is humble and opens new inroads and paradigms for both the wronged and the perpetrator. Some people might have received it with contempt, but I’m sure the gesture was genuine and might have acted as a powerful and mitigating message to the cultures warring in this era of the “New Crusade”. In these thousands of years old conflicts, occaasionally ground must be given in a diplomatic way for any progress to be made… I mean, I heard a Jewish Symphony just played a Wagner Concert in Germany. That’s some progress there and not at the pace of a millenial scale… True. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/56 "2011-07-30T05:05:16Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I don’t think anyone is equating them, simply pointing out that communism is an atheistic idea, held by atheists, and used against theists for being thesits. It is not an “atheistic idea”. And of course people are equating them, like I said that’s the standard for believers; communism = atheism = atheists are all Stalinist mass murderers. It’s so standard it’s positively a cliche. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/57 "2011-07-30T06:22:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is not an “atheistic idea”. And of course people are equating them, like I said that’s the standard for believers; communism = atheism = atheists are all Stalinist mass murderers. It’s so standard it’s positively a cliche. It is, sorry dude, it is. A cliche? Really? I mean, outside from the voices in your head. At most the phrase is “when atheists got real power they started killing like crazy”. How many do you mean by “people”? 1? 2? 1%? 5%? 20%? 50%? 98%? 100%? How difficult has it got to be for you to get out of your house knowing you’e surrounded by hordes ready to kill you at a moment’s notice. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/58 "2011-07-30T17:35:54Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It is, sorry dude, it is. Communism is an economic model. It has nothing to do with god. Is capitalism inherently theistic? atheistic? Most communist countries were totalitarian states. They hated religion because they thought it was a threat. I’m an atheist(for all practical purposes) and I find Stalin and Mao just as despicable as any theist. Most atheists do. Check out [Christian communism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism) ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/59 "2011-07-30T18:28:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It is, sorry dude, it is. No, it isn’t. Communism has nothing to do with religious belief. It’s an economic system. Most of us learned that in junior high. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/60 "2011-07-30T18:45:21Z")
Communism was a rather broad philosophy, starting with scientific socialism, which left out unproven beliefs such as Christianity. Socialism itself may or may not have a religious component. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695.md?page=4)