# Should Christians apologize for the Oslo killings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695 "2011-07-29T02:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/61 "2011-07-30T18:51:19Z")
> [@Ají de Gallina](#): > > You didn’t get the official SDMB memo, did you? It says that atheists cannot do anyhting wrong because of their atheism,ever. Atheism is a word that shouldn’t even exist. We don’t have words for people who _don’t_ believe in astrology, or who _don’t_ believe that Elvis is still alive. Atheism is not a belief system, or even a view of the world. It is simply a lack of belief in Gods. It _is_ impossible to do something wrong _because_ of atheism, same as it’s impossible to do something wrong because you don’t put any stock in horoscopes. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/62 "2011-07-30T19:05:00Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Communism was a rather broad philosophy, starting with scientific socialism, which left out unproven beliefs such as Christianity. Socialism itself may or may not have a religious component. Marx intentionally dismissed belief in God as a necessary component of his (economic) philosophy, and why shouldn’t he? He also stated plainly that “atheism is far from Communism”. It’s atheistic in that theism is irrelevant to an economic model. The teachings of Christ, meanwhile, are pretty easily read as Communistic (or, at the very least, socialistic). Just like Christianity, the way Communism was practiced did not often square with how it was put forth as a philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/63 "2011-07-30T20:56:17Z")
Oh, but Marxism is only part of Communism. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/65 "2011-07-30T22:30:46Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > I have found nowhere in the Bible that Jesus ever lifted up his hand against another man. The moneychangers in the temple? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/66 "2011-07-30T22:48:35Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Communism is an economic model. It has nothing to do with god. Is capitalism inherently theistic? atheistic? > > Most communist countries were totalitarian states. They hated religion because they thought it was a threat. I’m an atheist(for all practical purposes) and I find Stalin and Mao just as despicable as any theist. Most atheists do. > > Check out [Christian communism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism) It is an economic model and has nothing to do with god. Christian communism is like meat-eating vegetarianism. > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > No, it isn’t. Communism has nothing to do with religious belief. It’s an economic system. Most of us learned that in junior high. Very good for you to have been to a good school instead of the crappy one I did. Well done. > [@George\_Kaplin](#): > > Atheism is a word that shouldn’t even exist. We don’t have words for people who _don’t_ believe in astrology, or who _don’t_ believe that Elvis is still alive. Atheism is not a belief system, or even a view of the world. It is simply a lack of belief in Gods. It _is_ impossible to do something wrong _because_ of atheism, same as it’s impossible to do something wrong because you don’t put any stock in horoscopes. I didn’t invent the word. I know of moral (lack of) implication of atheism, but that also means that atheists canoot use it as a moral backdrop or compare their moral outlook to toehr atheists. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The moneychangers in the temple? It wasn’t a hand, it was a kick-ass whip. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/67 "2011-07-30T22:50:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And of course people are equating them, like I said that’s the standard for believers; communism = atheism = atheists are all Stalinist mass murderers. And it’s no more warped than your endless, foaming-at-the-mouth tirades against religion in general and Christianity in particular. Radical secularists killed more than a hundred million people in Europe and Asia in the twentieth century. You need to quit pretending that this fact is somehow unimportant or trying to make it go away with silly word games (e.g. calling Communism a religion). ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/68 "2011-07-30T23:01:18Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Marx intentionally dismissed belief in God as a necessary component of his (economic) philosophy, and why shouldn’t he? He also stated plainly that “atheism is far from Communism”. It’s atheistic in that theism is irrelevant to an economic model. The teachings of Christ, meanwhile, are pretty easily read as Communistic (or, at the very least, socialistic). Just like Christianity, the way Communism was practiced did not often square with how it was put forth as a philosophy. Nonetheless, Marxism is an explicitly atheistic philosophy, and it is brand of communism which came to rule in Russia and China. It is no more reasonable to expect a Christian to apologize for every crime committed in the name of Christianity than it is to expect an atheist or secularist to apologize for the crimes of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/69 "2011-07-31T00:46:59Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It is an economic model and has nothing to do with god. > Christian communism is like meat-eating vegetarianism. I don’t get it. You realize that communism has nothing to do with god but still think Christian communism is self contradictory? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/70 "2011-07-31T01:23:31Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > I don’t get it. You realize that communism has nothing to do with god but still think Christian communism is self contradictory? Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/71 "2011-07-31T01:30:27Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > > [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > > > I don’t get it. You realize that communism has nothing to do with god but still think Christian communism is self contradictory? > > Yeah. Note to self… ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/72 "2011-07-31T02:41:43Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The moneychangers in the temple? He turned over their table and said unkind things. He never lifted a hand on them. Please give me book, chapter and verse. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/73 "2011-07-31T02:46:14Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > I don’t get it. You realize that communism has nothing to do with god but still think Christian communism is self contradictory? Christianity and Marxism (the most prevalent form of communism today) are certainly mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/74 "2011-07-31T02:54:14Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > He turned over their table and said unkind things. He never lifted a hand on them. Please give me book, chapter and verse. > [@](#): > > _Jesus Cleanses the Temple, John 2: 13-16:_ > 13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15 **And making a whip of cords,** he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.” He made and used a whip. I assume he was using it on somebody. ---
**Author:** ![mattkilla440](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mattkilla440](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattkilla440)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/75 "2011-07-31T03:17:45Z")
Christians should come out and explain the differences in him and core beliefs of the christian faith. people should realize that what a person does is their choice just because they are part of whatever religion does not condone that the religion is at fault. some people are just crazy or turn crazy and so many times for no good logical reason need to blame an organization or religion that the person is in. very bad logic. same reason that we should not blame violent video games for peoples behaviors because 99% of the time the rest of the people play violent video games, watch violent movies etc are sane. now i know that this man had a sh!t ton of papers calming he did this because he was christian but either a. he was just insane or b. like so many other times using religion as a front to do whatever the hell he/she wants. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/76 "2011-07-31T04:01:43Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Christianity and Marxism (the most prevalent form of communism today) are certainly mutually exclusive. It’s worth adding “(the most prevalent form of Christianity today)” to the above as well, since the current forms bear little similarity to the original, which was indeed somewhat communal. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/77 "2011-07-31T04:01:44Z")
What really upsets me is that the best photo they could find of Breivik was him in full Masonic regalia. Way to make us look bad, Breivik. You created more fuel for the Anti-Mason fire. Dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/78 "2011-07-31T04:43:32Z")
> [@mattkilla440](#): > > Christians should come out and explain the differences in him and core beliefs of the christian faith. people should realize that what a person does is their choice just because they are part of whatever religion does not condone that the religion is at fault. some people are just crazy or turn crazy and so many times for no good logical reason need to blame an organization or religion that the person is in. very bad logic. same reason that we should not blame violent video games for peoples behaviors because 99% of the time the rest of the people play violent video games, watch violent movies etc are sane. now i know that this man had a sh!t ton of papers calming he did this because he was christian but either a. he was just insane or b. like so many other times using religion as a front to do whatever the hell he/she wants. The thing is: why stop at religion? Should all Norwegians do the same? All Freemasons? All people who own guns? I get your point that it’s a good moment (coming out of a tragedy) to highlight certain aspects of your beliefs, especially those that include not killing 80 teenagers in cold blood, but it could alo be understood as one feeling guilty in some way. ---
**Author:** ![mattkilla440](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mattkilla440](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattkilla440)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/79 "2011-07-31T04:59:20Z")
i would stop at religion because its the medias main topic and his reason for doing what he did right? > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The thing is: why stop at religion? > Should all Norwegians do the same? > All Freemasons? All people who own guns? > > I get your point that it’s a good moment (coming out of a tragedy) to highlight certain aspects of your beliefs, especially those that include not killing 80 teenagers in cold blood, but it could alo be understood as one feeling guilty in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/80 "2011-07-31T08:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lonesome Polecat** : Christianity and Marxism (the most prevalent form of communism today) are certainly mutually exclusive. So if you sell all that you own to feed the poor and live a simple life of sharing, you can’t be a Christian? In answer to the OP, I don’t blame the Muslim for acts of terrorism anymore than I blame Germans or Jews or Christians or testosterone. I don’t blame Norwegians or blond hair. I blame the people who committed the acts of terrorism and the people who willfully inspired those people to react with violence. **Der Trihs** , your words are filled with generalizations and mischaracterizations of religious people. Some may fit your descriptions, but not most. Your responses have become as unthinking as a delivery from a gumball machine. You are capable of much clearer thinking than that. Christians are not all alike. Most of us are not violent or even threatening. Many of us agree with you about the negative influence of fundamentalism when it becomes too involved in controlling the government. You have a very large blind spot which you never acknowledge and that is a weakness in your arguments. Consider becoming a peacemaker yourself. “Blessed are the peacemakers.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/81 "2011-07-31T18:15:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > An an incidental note, I object to definitions that describe atheism as “a lack of belief in God”, on the basis of accuracy. The literal meaning of the term is simply “without theism”, which more reasonably applies to religions in general, not all of which incorporate a “God”. This is backwards. Theism _is_ belief in god. Religion isn’t. So _irreligious_ fits your argument, but _atheist_ doesn’t. You can, for example, be an atheist and a Buddhist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695.md?page=5)