# Should Christians apologize for the Oslo killings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695 "2011-07-29T02:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/82 "2011-07-31T19:40:15Z")
Nobody is responsible for another person’s actions unless they have actively encuraged those actions. I don’t ask a Muslim to apologize for 9/11 I don’t ask a Christian to apologize for the Utøya killings I won’t ever apologize for wrongs performed by Europeans, Westerners or white males. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/83 "2011-07-31T19:58:52Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > He made and used a whip. I assume he was using it on somebody. From the well respected NIV ‘‘So he made a whip of cords and drove all out of the temple area, both sheep and cattle.’’ None of the other Gospels mention the whip. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/84 "2011-07-31T20:12:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. I just pointed out that attempts to equate atheism and communism are a standard way of smearing atheism. Personally I always smear atheists by saying they have small willies, and were always the last people to get picked in team games at school. Plus its a known fact that ALL communists love the smell of beetroot in the morning. So how d’you like them EGGS ! Bastards ! ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/85 "2011-07-31T21:21:53Z")
> [@mattkilla440](#): > > i would stop at religion because its the medias main topic and his reason for doing what he did right? I get the point of religion for this specific thread. I was trying to make a more general point. > [@Zoe](#): > > So if you sell all that you own to feed the poor and live a simple life of sharing, you can’t be a Christian? > (snipped) Sure you can, but that’s not Marxism or Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/86 "2011-07-31T22:59:01Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > … indicated that he was doing with religious motives. “The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon”… the Knights Templar? Seriously? Well, since they were officially dissovled in 1312 it does seem a bit unreasonable to suggest that Christians should apologise for Breivik’s actions. (Yes, slightly tongue in cheek, but I think the idea of people apologising for things they had no hand in or control over is fairly daft). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/87 "2011-07-31T23:59:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Sure you can, but that’s not Marxism or Communism. You gotta watch out for those “cultural Franciscans” infiltrating our governments. > [@Apollyon](#): > > “The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon”… the Knights Templar? Seriously? Well, since they were officially dissovled in 1312 it does seem a bit unreasonable to suggest that Christians should apologise for Breivik’s actions. > > (Yes, slightly tongue in cheek, but I think the idea of people apologising for things they had no hand in or control over is fairly daft). Haven’t you seen Dan Brown stuff, National Treasure, or Assassin’s Creed? They’re still around. Think we can blame(thank) the French for killing them off? Granted, the reasons were likely spurious because Philip IV was a dick, but he (and by extension all French people) got rid of them. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/88 "2011-08-01T00:27:43Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Haven’t you seen Dan Brown stuff, National Treasure, or Assassin’s Creed? They’re still around. Hey, I read _The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail_ before it was parodied by Umberto Eco… Dan Brown is a Johnny-come-lately to this party. 🙂 My observation was just that since they were officially disbanded in the early 1300s by the then offcial Christian establishment it’s a bit on the nose to suggest that the Christians should be responsible for them 700 years later. > [@](#): > > Think we can blame(thank) the French for killing them off? Granted, the reasons were likely spurious because Philip IV was a dick, but he (and by extension all French people) got rid of them. Well, apparently, (if we are to credit Messrs. Baigent, Leigh, Lincoln, Brown, et al) then they didn’t do a very thorough job. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/89 "2011-08-01T00:53:47Z")
Dan Brown wrote books, too? 😉 Technically, the papacy was involved in the Templar suppression, but this was also during the Avignon Papacy, when they didn’t even reside in Rome and were subservient to the French king, who wanted the Templars gone, and of course their riches. A task which he had practice on when he did similar to the Jews, and kicked them out of France. ---
**Author:** ![punch\_line\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e7dd6/32.png) [@punch\_line\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punch_line_loser)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/90 "2011-08-01T01:43:32Z")
i lost track of this conversation around the time someone decided to be on the internet and bring up the nazis again… and right when i was beginning to believe i could hang out on message boards again so someone remind me what the hell we’re talking about? something about monty python… right? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/91 "2011-08-01T02:01:29Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I don’t think anyone is equating them, simply pointing out that communism is an atheistic idea… Ha ha ha ha HA HA HA! This is hilarious. Is Keynesian economics a non-mint-chocolate-chip-ice-cream idea? Is Libertarianism a non-Sergeant-Pepper’s-Lonely-Heart’s-Club-Band idea? Ha…HA HA ha HA HA… Thanks for the laughs, Ají. We could all use a chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Wotdazog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@Wotdazog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wotdazog)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/92 "2011-08-01T12:07:51Z")
No, absolutely not. Apology intones responsibility. Political correctness is a cancer on the public mind, and it should not be made to force people account for events not in their control. (First post on SD, forumites! I’m looking forward to ignoring the ignorant here, too. Not that any of you should trust that I’m not a part of the problem … Love) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/93 "2011-08-01T12:21:34Z")
If other members of the religion do not consider the actions characteristic or prescribed by their religion, then it is not relevant that they should apologise. If other members of the religion **do** consider the actions characteristic or prescribed by the religion, then they probably won’t consider an apology necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/94 "2011-08-01T12:30:56Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It is an economic model and has nothing to do with god. > Christian communism is like meat-eating vegetarianism. No it’s not. Meat-eating and vegetarianism are necessarily mutually exclusive. Christianity and communism are not. They may not be especially compatible, but they’re not mutually exclusive. The early church had quite a socialist/communist leaning, at least as described in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/95 "2011-08-01T12:39:35Z")
> [@Wotdazog](#): > > No, absolutely not. Apology intones responsibility. Good point. As a Christian, I do feel I need to speak out against those that I feel are distorting Christianity. I can condemn the Oslo killings as being contrary to what I believe. The rest of the world needs to know that most people calling themselves Christians abhor such. I am sorry the Oslo killings happened, but take no responsibility for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/96 "2011-08-01T14:12:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is not an “atheistic idea”. And of course people are equating them, like I said that’s the standard for believers; communism = atheism = atheists are all Stalinist mass murderers. It’s so standard it’s positively a cliche. People do not “equate” them. Really. Point to just one person who does so. What most people realize is that there’s no room within communism for God. So atheism is a condition for communism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/97 "2011-08-01T14:22:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > People do not “equate” them. Really. Point to just one person who does so. What most people realize is that there’s no room within communism for God. So atheism is a condition for communism. There was no room for anything but Communism in Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/98 "2011-08-01T14:41:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …there’s no room within communism for God… Is this really a meaningful statement though? If so, what does it mean? Are you saying that communism explicitly _excludes_ God, or just that it lacks a convenient empty slot for him? If the latter, is the same not true of many, many other things? Is there room in capitalism for God? (including God in capitalism just gives the result of ‘capitalism plus God’, as far as I can see) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/99 "2011-08-01T14:58:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Are you saying that communism explicitly _excludes_ God, or just that it lacks a convenient empty slot for him? Marist-Leninist thought specifically excludes God, with all the talk about dialectical materialism. > [@](#): > > The Party aims at the complete destruction of links between the exploiting classes and… religious propaganda, while assisting the actual liberation of the working masses from religious prejudices and organizing the broadest possible education-enlightening and anti-religious propaganda. > [@](#): > > The tenth CPSU congress met in 1921 and it passed a resolution calling for 'wide-scale organization, leadership, and cooperation in the task of anti-religious agitation and propaganda among the broad masses of the workers, using the mass media, films, books, lectures, and other devices.[50] > > When church leaders demanded freedom of religion under the constitution, the Communists responded with terror. They murdered the metropolitan of Kiev and executed twenty-eight bishops and 6,775 priests. > [@](#): > > During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, over 100,000 were shot. > [@](#): > > In 1995, the Russian state commissioner confirmed that 200,000 Russian Orthodox Priests, monks, and nuns were killed. These persecutions were carried out specifically because the Communist states involved were anti-religious, although sometimes they would use the excuse that the people they were murdering were anti-State. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/100 "2011-08-01T15:01:48Z")
Lest I be accused of playing the “No True Scotsman” game, let’s be clear about a few things. OBVIOUSLY, there have been many Christians over the past 2,000 years who have done horrible things in the name of Jesus. As a Catholic Christian, I HAVE to be ashamed of such people, and I have an obligation to denounce them. Even though I KNOW that the Catholic Church has never said or done anything t oencourage the bombing of abortion clinics, I also know that the people who do such thing are frequently acting according to what they THINK are Catholic principles. So, as much as I’d like to wash my hands of such people, I can’t. I don’t have the luxury of pretending those people have nothing to do with me or my church. If it turns out that hypothetical “Sean Fitzgerald” planted a bomb at a Planed Parenthood clinic and said the Rosary while waiting for the bomb to go off… I HAVE to apologize for him. I think he’s a HORRIBLe Catholic, an EVIL Catholic, but there’s no way around it, he IS a Catholic, and I need to apologize for him. If Breivik is a Christian, I have to feel SOME responsibility for him. If his beliefs and principles resemble mine i nthe least, I may HAVE to apologize for him. So, IS he a Christian in any real sense? Even if I think he’s perverted Christianity, do I recognize him as some kind of Christian for all that? No, I don’t think so. His own writings indicate pretty clearly that he doesn’t even believe in God and has NEVER been religiously observant. He uses “Christian” as a vague, all-purpose name for what he regards as Western culture. A guy who doesn’t believe in God, who dismisses traditional religion as “a crutch,” and doesn’t belong to any kind of Church is not a Christian in my book. I don’t have to disassociate myself from him because he was NEVER associated with me in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695/101 "2011-08-01T15:03:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Marist-Leninist thought specifically excludes God, with all the talk about dialectical materialism. > > These persecutions were carried out specifically because the Communist states involved were anti-religious, although sometimes they would use the excuse that the people they were murdering were anti-State. > > Regards, > Shodan Thank you _ever_ so much for not equating atheism(which is nothing more than not believing in God) with Communism(believing in nothing but the State.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-apologize-for-the-oslo-killings/590695.md?page=6)