# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/1 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")
And the slipper slope to lack of religious freedom continues. Now in NM, it is against the law for a Christian photographer to refuse services to a gay couple. Otherwise, it is discrimination. This is pretty outrageous. If I was a photographer, I should have the freedom to not produce photographs of something in which I had a moral objection. One good point that was made is that the government would never force an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy yet the same principle is applied here. "The ADF, a Christian legal alliance group, believes the court’s verdict in this case sends a clear message that: “you will be punished if you don’t fully endorse or promote the homosexual agenda, whether you agree with it or not.” > **[Christian Photographers to Appeal Decision Forcing Them to Cover Gay Marriages](https://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-photographers-lawyers-to-appeal-decision-forcing-gay-marriage-services-76278/)** > > A New Mexico court has upheld a ruling that it is illegal for a Christian couple to refuse their services to same-sex couples because of their faith, as it would be discriminating against a person s ... This is merely just one step away from my prediction that churches will be forced to admit gay members and conduct gay wedding ceremonies. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/2 "2012-06-11T19:53:33Z")
You do realize that slippery slope arguments are a fallacy? The courts have upheld the right of private organization to set restrictions on membership multiple times. This fear has absolutely no basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/3 "2012-06-11T19:57:41Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And the slipper slope to lack of religious freedom continues. Now in NM, it is against the law for a Christian photographer to refuse services to a gay couple. Otherwise, it is discrimination. > > This is pretty outrageous. If I was a photographer, I should have the freedom to not produce photographs of something in which I had a moral objection. One good point that was made is that the government would never force an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy yet the same principle is applied here. > > "The ADF, a Christian legal alliance group, believes the court’s verdict in this case sends a clear message that: “you will be punished if you don’t fully endorse or promote the homosexual agenda, whether you agree with it or not.” > > [Christian Photographers to Appeal Decision Forcing Them to Cover Gay Marriages](http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-photographers-lawyers-to-appeal-decision-forcing-gay-marriage-services-76278/) > > This is merely just one step away from my prediction that churches will be forced to admit gay members and conduct gay wedding ceremonies. Should Mormons be forced to photograph black weddings? (Mormons thought blacks were cursed until 1978). In answer to the OP, yes. For the same reason that your restaurant can’t not feed protected classes. I’d like to add that if someone is a bigot because they think God wants them to hate those people, they’re still bigoted pieces of shit. Religion doesn’t make being a completely vile asshole okay. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/4 "2012-06-11T19:58:49Z")
No. It doesn’t mean they followed the law, however. With religious liberty comes liability. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/5 "2012-06-11T20:02:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Should Mormons be forced to photograph black weddings? (Mormons thought blacks were cursed until 1978). > > In answer to the OP, yes. For the same reason that your restaurant can’t not feed protected classes. > I’d like to add that if someone is a bigot because they think God wants them to hate those people, they’re still bigoted pieces of shit. Religion doesn’t make being a completely vile asshole okay. Just because someone doesn’t support ssm doesn’t make them a piece of shit. May as well say all Catholics hate women. Jews, too. Religion is not teh eebil. It’s a work in progress. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/6 "2012-06-11T20:03:53Z")
That whole article is confusing, especially since it doesn’t link to the court opinion. How does New Mexico force its Christian photographers to shoot gay weddings which are not legal in that state? According to this article at the HuffPo: [New Mexico law does not recognize same-sex marriages or civil unions for same-sex couples, but its Human Rights Act requires that places of public accommodation not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/06/elaine-huguenin-photograp_n_1572676.html) So in other words, if the photographer said it was against her christian religion to photograph blacks it would be the same thing. So, GEEPERS, is it ok that Christians photographers are forced to shoot blacks as well? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/7 "2012-06-11T20:13:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Should Mormons be forced to photograph black weddings? (Mormons thought blacks were cursed until 1978). > > In answer to the OP, yes. For the same reason that your restaurant can’t not feed protected classes. > I’d like to add that if someone is a bigot because they think God wants them to hate those people, they’re still bigoted pieces of shit. Religion doesn’t make being a completely vile asshole okay. A business has the right to refuse service to customers. Same as a store that demands no shirts, no shoes, no service, or a restaurant that requires a dress code. If you don’t like it, you have the freedom to take your business elsewhere. Forcing a Christian to witness and record an act that completely violates their beliefs is wrong, and doesn’t make one a bigot. Christians shouldn’t hate gay people, but that doesn’t mean we should take part in gay pride parades either. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/8 "2012-06-11T20:13:54Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > This is pretty outrageous. If I was a photographer, I should have the freedom to not produce photographs of something in which I had a moral objection. One good point that was made is that the government would never force an animal rights activist to create a video promoting hunting and taxidermy yet the same principle is applied here. Really stupid analogy. Is the government grabbing animal rights activists off the street and telling them they have to take videos of a hunting trip? The government argument is that a person who publicly offers to create videos or photographs of weddings and other celebrations must not discriminate against potential clients who seek that person’s services. It is the same concept that prohibits that person from refusing to provide photographic services to another person for being black (or white) or for being Russian or Baptist. The photographer/videographer publicly offers a service and should not be refusing to provide that service due to his or her own personal prejudices. (I am not sure why anyone would want to employ such a person, knowing that the photographer/videographer would probably do a crappy job–bigots are like that–but that is not the issue before the court.) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/9 "2012-06-11T20:14:44Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > A business has the right to refuse service to customers. Same as a store that demands no shirts, no shoes, no service, or a restaurant that requires a dress code. If you don’t like it, you have the freedom to take your business elsewhere. > Forcing a Christian to witness and record an act that completely violates their beliefs is wrong, and doesn’t make one a bigot. Christians shouldn’t hate gay people, but that doesn’t mean we should take part in gay pride parades either. You may want to revisit the past 100 years of history. A google search for the Greensboro sit-ins would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/10 "2012-06-11T20:14:56Z")
[Daily Kos quotes the relevant laws here (I think).](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/08/1098517/-Bigoted-Photographer-To-Appeal-Decision) It’s not totally clear to me what qualifies as a public accomodation there and what isn’t, but the courts are saying that this photography business qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/11 "2012-06-11T20:16:18Z")
How about a couple who are sexually active before their marriage? What about second or subsequent marriages? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/12 "2012-06-11T20:17:20Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Forcing a Christian to witness and record an act that completely violates their beliefs is wrong, and doesn’t make one a bigot. Yes, it does. Saying “I’m a Christian” is not a magic wand that means a position cannot be bigoted. It doesn’t mean the law doesn’t apply to you either, although again, I’m not totally clear on what the law is in New Mexico. > [@](#): > > Christians shouldn’t hate gay people, but that doesn’t mean we should take part in gay pride parades either. Again - and this is probably the 6th thread where you’ve done this - your interpretation of Christian views is not universal. Plenty of Christians support gay rights and gay pride. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/13 "2012-06-11T20:18:09Z")
For me, the slippery slope worry is about what a public accommodation is. (There’s zero chance that churches will be required to marry people they don’t want to.) Does it apply to any commercial venture? Is that defined by a business license, or by simply offering a service? If I offer a service to one person, am I suddenly required to accept offers from everyone? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/14 "2012-06-11T20:18:18Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > That whole article is confusing, especially since it doesn’t link to the court opinion. > > How does New Mexico force its Christian photographers to shoot gay weddings which are not legal in that state? > > According to this article at the HuffPo: > > [New Mexico law does not recognize same-sex marriages or civil unions for same-sex couples, but its Human Rights Act requires that places of public accommodation not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/06/elaine-huguenin-photograp_n_1572676.html) > > So in other words, if the photographer said it was against her christian religion to photograph blacks it would be the same thing. > > So, GEEPERS, is it ok that Christians photographers are forced to shoot blacks as well? Racial discrimination is something completely different, and it is an universal immoral offense that transcends all religions so refusing service to a person of a particular race is clear discrimination regardless of religious backgrounds. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a race. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/15 "2012-06-11T20:19:43Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Racial discrimination is something completely different, and it is an universal immoral offense that transcends all religions so refusing service to a person of a particular race is clear discrimination regardless of religious backgrounds. Religion was often used to justify racial discrimination as well. It’s not at all different. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/16 "2012-06-11T20:19:51Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Religion is not teh eebil. It’s a work in progress. The work is complete. It’s called humanism. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/17 "2012-06-11T20:21:02Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Racial discrimination is something completely different, and it is an universal immoral offense that transcends all religions so refusing service to a person of a particular race is clear discrimination regardless of religious backgrounds. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a race. The Church of Jesus Christ–Christian disagrees with you, or are you trying to force your beliefs on them? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/18 "2012-06-11T20:21:29Z")
I find myself astonished that anyone in the USA would actually believe that Christians are being persecuted in any manner whatsoever. It is as if right-handed people declared that a conspiracy was afoot when they first encountered left-handed scissors. “Oh my, Fred, take a look at this! A pair of scissors especially designed for those Satanic _Southpaws_! Next thing you know, they’ll be taking away our rights to ostracize them!” Slippery slope? Really? And, yes, I know that Satanic _Southpaws_ is an awesome bandname. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/19 "2012-06-11T20:22:01Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > A business has the right to refuse service to customers. In terms of meeting the needs of the business and the needs of its customers, you are correct. In terms of discriminating against someone for their religious beliefs, you are wrong. No store can exclude you because you are not Catholic. You need to get a grasp of the various ways that society actually operates rather than simply jumping in with outrage to defend any person who acts outside the bounds of the law to impose their own rteligious prejudices. Did Elane Photography advertise “Weddings only” photography? Or did they claim to be a general portrait and video studio? If they handled only weddings, they might have a case for declining a “commitment ceremony,” particularly if they also refused business for Confirmations, Communions, Anniversaries, etc. However, if they were willing to provide services for all those other forms of ceremonies, then they should not be excluding only persons they do not like. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/20 "2012-06-11T20:24:01Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a race. Homosexuality is is a personal condition, just as heterosexuality is. Claiming that it is a “lifestyle” much less that it is a “choice” is utter nonsense. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=2)