# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/181 "2012-06-12T13:11:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. Taking offense is not the same thing as being complicit in a sin. Taking offense is generally letting one’s pride and prejudice rule one’s emotions. Yes, but you are expecting \*\*GEEPERS \*\*to reply with sense and sensibility. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/182 "2012-06-12T13:22:00Z")
Geepers, you are aware that there is a law in New Mexico forbidding businesses from discriminating against gay people, right? Who do you think is passing these laws? I can’t find any information on the makeup of the New Mexico legislature–is it being overrun by gay people? Somehow I’m guessing it’s not. I can never understand the viewpoint of Geepers or Tony Perkins when they talk about how the “liberals” or the “gays” are taking away the rights of christians. Do you think gay people make laws? Or non-christians, or even liberals, for that matter? In Congress there are three non-christians that I know of. A Muslim from Minnesota, one from Indiana, and I think one atheist in there somewhere. As far as I know, there is one gay congressman. There may be more I don’t know about, but I guarantee it’s less than ten. The Senate is completely straight and christian, at least in public. I would bet every penny I have that the legislative body in New Mexico that passed this law was at least 90% christian, and 95% straight. They represent the will of the people that elected them; if New Mexico can be compared to the rest of the country that’s what, 80% christian and 90% straight? Who exactly do you think is oppressing you? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/183 "2012-06-12T13:22:12Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Let me get this straight, I am not allowed to make mocking comments about atheists, but you freely break this rule here. Ok, thank you for proving that this forum is hardly fair to a Christian. > > Since the atheists here have made it clear their extreme hostility to the gospel of Jesus Christ, why in the world would I expect the enemy to ever give me an ounce of credibility? The replies here only strengthen my faith in regards to John 15:19 . It’s interesting that you’ve said this to a Christian while arguing with an assortment of people ranging from atheist to agnotic to neopagan to Christian. Me, I eat sugar on my porridge. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/184 "2012-06-12T13:23:04Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Yes, but you are expecting \*\*GEEPERS \*\*to reply with sense and sensibility. Couldn’t resist, could you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/185 "2012-06-12T13:29:03Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’m concerned by this statement. What offensive act are you referencing here? Compelling someone to witness two people having sexual congress of any sort could definitely be construed as a violation of that person’s rights. But AFAIK the “offensive act” is a commitment ceremony, in which two people pledge the sort of fidelity and mutual support that is the hallmark of a healthy marriage. In what way does this become offensive? Two peenies. You see if there was just one penis up there, all would be jake. But with two of them swinging around … hell, that’s just too much to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/186 "2012-06-12T13:35:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Just trying to explore the limits of this situation… > > Imagine I run a horrible little church in Florida that really hates Muslims. I discover that a Muslim has set himself up running a graphic design company in my community, so I decide to give him shit. Specifically, I design “Mohammad is a demon!” t-shirts and hire his company to create the shirts. They feature a cartoon Mohammad sporting horns and a lascivious forked tongue. I make it very clear that this isn’t a jibe; this is my genuine belief. > > Surely the design guy can refuse the job? Well, yes, but Florida doesn’t have a similar constitutional provision to the one that’s at issue here. As **NotreDame05** correctly noted, even a sincerely held religious belief may be infringed by laws which are neutral as to content and of general applicability. It’s the same reason you can’t get around your state’s marijuana prohibition by starting a Church of Marley and getting high on Sundays. In the wake of Employment Division v. Smith, Congress passed the [Religious Freedom Restoration Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act), which would have compelled a different result in this case, but the provisions which applied to the states were struck down as unconstitutional. To cut a long story short, the law was passed under §5 of the 14th Amendment, and Congress may impose only remedial restrictions on the states under that section. They didn’t actually look for examples of infringement on religious liberty before passing the law, so they couldn’t claim to be remedying something; instead, they were preventing future violations, which was beyond their authority. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/187 "2012-06-12T13:39:22Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Except when it is in accordance to the Holy Word of God. Mark 12:31 certainly set the standard against racism. Romans 1:26-27 does not support homosexuality. Sorry, it doesn’t. Sucks for you then that we don’t live in a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/188 "2012-06-12T13:40:43Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Yes, but you are expecting \*\*GEEPERS \*\*to reply with sense and sensibility. Instead of pride and prejudice? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/189 "2012-06-12T13:46:42Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Since the atheists here have made it clear their extreme hostility to the gospel of Jesus Christ, why in the world would I expect the enemy to ever give me an ounce of credibility? A better question is why you don’t listen to simple directions. I specifically told you to stop making these kinds of off-topic remarks. I’ve also told you before that complaints about moderating belong in private messages to the staff or in ATMB threads because we don’t want them to clog up the threads. This is a formal warning: don’t do it again. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > We need to convene a meeting of Atheists of America, obviously we’ve not gone _far enough_ yet. Making Christians photograph gay weddings just isn’t enough, we need to force Christians to have gay sex, or be fed to lions. > > Fed to lions… while having gay sex! No more of this, thanks. As noted, this is not Atheists vs. Christians, Round 1 Million. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/190 "2012-06-12T13:48:17Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > I find myself astonished that anyone in the USA would actually believe that Christians are being persecuted in any manner whatsoever. > It is as if right-handed people declared that a conspiracy was afoot when they first encountered left-handed scissors. > > “Oh my, Fred, take a look at this! A pair of scissors especially designed for those Satanic _Southpaws_! > Next thing you know, they’ll be taking away our rights to ostracize them!” > > Slippery slope? Really? > > And, yes, I know that Satanic _Southpaws_ is an awesome bandname. Now take out the word Christian, and replace it with business owner and yes he is being persecuted (at least according to the OP) The reality of things is business can refuse to take on business for just about any reason they want, as it is their business. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/191 "2012-06-12T13:49:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m sorry if I sounded snappy - well, I probably \*was \*snappy at that (due to stuff outside the forum) and that was unwarranted. My apologies. > That being said, I didn’t mean “red herring” in a negative way nor was I trying to imply that you were deliberately trying to mislead or anything of the sort. Would “false equivalence” have been a more neutral expression ? > > Yup, and there’s nothing wrong with that that I can see. The fire station was wrong to try and force them to take an active part in an event they were against. > > But I guess I don’t really see the relevance here. Taking pictures isn’t really taking part, is it ? The news crews filming a gay pride aren’t participating in the pride or expressing support for it or anything of the sort for example. > And snapping pictures at a gay wedding doesn’t imply support of it, either. Unlike mandatory marching in a demonstration, it’s not being required to express anything nor voice opinions you don’t really share. It’s not enabling gay wedding, either - the wedding’s going to happen whether the cameraman is there or not. > So what does refusing to do it accomplish, besides outing oneself as a 'phobe ? It may not be directly expressing support, but you are forcing people of faith to witness an act that is morally offensive to the person. It’s the same principle if you forced the animal activist to witness the slaughtering of cattle or a taxidermist at work. You can’t deny that Christian’s rights have been taken away here, plain and simple. Gay rights trump religious rights according to the court. The judge ruled that Religious Freedom Restoration Act didn’t apply here because no religious activity took place in the ceremony. So what? Elane Photography would still have to accept the job even if it involved religious rituals. Otherwise, it is discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/192 "2012-06-12T13:51:27Z")
Yeah…we should repeal the Civil Rights Act, too, since some people are religiously opposed to serving black people. Since YOUR religious beliefs trump anyone else’s civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/193 "2012-06-12T13:52:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Couldn’t resist, could you? 😉 You know me better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/194 "2012-06-12T13:54:04Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > It may not be directly expressing support, but you are forcing people of faith to witness an act that is morally offensive to the person. Should a county clerk who is a Christian Identity believer be forced to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple? The marriage violates their sincerely held religious belief, doesn’t it? Alternatively, should a country club which holds itself out as available for weddings be allowed to refuse to host interracial weddings? > [@](#): > > The judge ruled that Religious Freedom Restoration Act didn’t apply here because no religious activity took place in the ceremony. So what? Elane Photography would still have to accept the job even if it involved religious rituals. Otherwise, it is discrimination. Where are you getting that from? It’s a state matter; the RFRA doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/195 "2012-06-12T13:57:03Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Instead of pride and prejudice? 😃 You win. That was beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/196 "2012-06-12T14:07:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Should a county clerk who is a Christian Identity believer be forced to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple? The marriage violates their sincerely held religious belief, doesn’t it? A government employee is required to perform job duties as defined by the job description. They don’t get a say in the matter. A business owner should have the right to deny service to customers. Furthermore, there really isn’t any evidence that the Bible is against inter-racial marriage. [/QUOTE] > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Alternatively, should a country club which holds itself out as available for weddings be allowed to refuse to host interracial weddings? In the case of racial discrimination, no. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/197 "2012-06-12T14:08:12Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You win. That was beautiful. I call that point, it was a rebound off a whoosh, but don’t want to get all John McEnroe about it. [hijack over, back to the quarrel] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/198 "2012-06-12T14:08:51Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You win. That was beautiful. Uh? The sequence was more like: tom: [straight line] Eve: [punchline] Polycarp: [repeat of straight line] Ivory: [congratulations to Poly] Besides, if anyone wins the thread, it’s me for post #78. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/199 "2012-06-12T14:12:15Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Furthermore, there really isn’t any evidence that the Bible is against inter-racial marriage. If people claim to interpret the Bible as being against interracial marriage (or if they publish their own translation that emphasises it), how is the law to distinguish between their cherished belief and yours? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/200 "2012-06-12T14:12:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yeah…we should repeal the Civil Rights Act, too, since some people are religiously opposed to serving black people. Since YOUR religious beliefs trump anyone else’s civil rights. Your comparison only holds up if you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. You can’t choose your race, but I could certainly suddenly call myself gay and receive special rights over religious people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=11)