# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/221 "2012-06-12T15:10:14Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Evidence can easily be manipulated, and studies rarely result in non-disputal facts. Studies have shown that there is a low rate of gay siblings involving indentical twins. I would expect it to be very high since they share the same genetics. Do you have anything to say to that? That it may have some biological aspects does not necessarily mean that it is genetic, for a start. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/222 "2012-06-12T15:12:27Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Evidence can easily be manipulated, and studies rarely result in non-disputal facts. Studies have shown that there is a low rate of gay siblings involving indentical twins. I would expect it to be very high since they share the same genetics. Do you have anything to say to that? What do you define as a “low rate”? And something needn’t be genetic to be biological. Hormone exposure i_n utero_ influences fetal development, which is not dependent on the genetics of the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/223 "2012-06-12T15:18:14Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Evidence can easily be manipulated, and studies rarely result in non-disputal facts. Studies have shown that there is a low rate of gay siblings involving indentical twins. I would expect it to be very high since they share the same genetics. Do you have anything to say to that? I’d like to see some of these studies- the ones I had read showed the opposite- that while not 100%, identical twins have the same sexual orientation at a considerably greater percentage then non-identical twins. If true, this would support the hypothesis that sexual orientation involves both genetic and environmental factors. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/224 "2012-06-12T15:19:51Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The Supreme Court apparently disagrees with you on the matter of job discrimination: > > [http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833](http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833) You are joking, right? That case turned on whether a _religious employer_ had the right to discriminate on the basis of religion. If they’d decided otherwise you would have started another thread decrying the decision because your church might be “forced” to hire an atheist. > [@](#): > > YOu got any supporting evidence for that, or must I take your words on faith? I can pretty much assure you that nobody has ever tried to sue because they were discriminated against in a social setting in a private home. However, [since you ask…](http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1971/1971_70_75) ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/225 "2012-06-12T15:21:16Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Evidence can easily be manipulated, and studies rarely result in non-disputal facts. Studies have shown that there is a low rate of gay siblings involving indentical twins. I would expect it to be very high since they share the same genetics. Do you have anything to say to that? Well, you see, evidence can easily be manipulated, not to mention that studies rarely result in “non-disputal” facts - whatever the hell those are. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/226 "2012-06-12T15:22:36Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > OTOH, gays don’t have to provide services to Christians because we are not a protected class of citizens. Wong. You, as a Christian, get protection from discrimination everywhere. Sexual orientation is protected from discrimination only in some locations. No business can refuse to service you on account of your Christianity. It’s been that way for close to 50 years now, but it’s interesting we don’t hear you whining about those poor oppressed business owners who aren’t allowed to discriminate against you. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > The Supreme Court apparently disagrees with you on the matter of job discrimination: > > [http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833](http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833) It seems that every time you point to a cite, it opposes what you’re trying to argue. Same here. This ruling says that religious organizations (churches) can require certain employees to share their religious views. For example, a Christian school can require that a teacher be a Christian. All the Christians were rejoicing about the decision! > [@](#): > > Bishop William E. Lori, chairman of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ ad hoc committee for religious liberty, cheered the decision, the New York Times reported. “This decision,” he said in a statement, “makes resoundingly clear the historical and constitutional importance of keeping internal church affairs off limits to the government — because whoever chooses the minister chooses the message.” Do you even read your own cites? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/227 "2012-06-12T15:26:11Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The Supreme Court apparently disagrees with you on the matter of job discrimination: > > [http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833](http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833) Do you ever read your cites, or do you just vomit up whatever google search appeals to you? Here’s the actual SC opinion on teh matter [http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf](http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf) HOSANNA-TABOR EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH AND SCHOOL v. EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION ET AL Interesting pieces > [@](#): > > Petitioner Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School is a member congregation of the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod. The Synod classifies its school teachers into two categories: “called”and “lay.” “Called” teachers are regarded as having been called to their vocation by God. > [@](#): > > Perich developed narcolepsy and began the 2004–2005 school year on disability leave. In January 2005, she notified the school principal that she would be able to report to work in February. The principal responded that the school had already contracted with a lay teacher to fill Perich’s position for the remainder of the school year > [@](#): > > The principal later called Perich and told her that she would likely be fired. Perich responded that she had spoken with an attorney and intended to assert her legal rights. In a subsequent letter, the chairman of the school board advised Perich that the congregation would consider whether to rescind her call at its next meeting. As grounds for termination, the letter cited Perich’s “insubordination and disruptive behavior,” as well as the damage she had done to her “working relationship” with the school by “threatening to take legal action.” > [@](#): > > The EEOC brought suit against Hosanna-Tabor, alleging that Perich had been fired in retaliation for threatening to file an ADA lawsuit. Perich intervened in the litigation. Invoking what is known as the “ministerial exception,” Hosanna-Tabor argued that the suit was barred by the First Amendment because the claims concerned the employment relationship between a religious institution and one of its ministers For **GEEPERS** the SC said –\> 'The church must be free to choose those who will guide it on its way." ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/228 "2012-06-12T15:26:19Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > YOu got any supporting evidence for that, or must I take your words on faith? [•14th Amendment does not empower federal government to stop private acts of discrimination •14th Amendment does require federal governments to stop state governments and their employees from discriminating](http://www.shmoop.com/equal-protection/state-discrimination-private-discrimination.html) [QUOTE=GEEPERS] A true born again believer will want to please God and fight the natural fleshly desires to sin. That is what separates us from the unsaved. Also, there are degrees of sin each with various degrees of consequence and damage. \*\*Sexual sin is particularly called out many times in the Bible because it can cause great damage to both the spirit and the physical body. \*\* 1 John 5:16-17 certainly shows degrees of sin. [/QUOTE] And Exodus 20:16 mentions something about bearing false witness. So please show that that’s why it was mentioned many times in the Bible as I’ve never seen any passage that states that’s why the reason it was mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/229 "2012-06-12T15:29:12Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The Supreme Court apparently disagrees with you on the matter of job discrimination: > > [http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833](http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/supreme-court-religious-workers-cant-sue-for-job-discrimination/Content?oid=2582833) uhhh- did you read that article or just post the headline - this is folks working for a religious ( **private** ) institution (church owned school or hospital) can’t sue if they are fired for breaking the requirements of said church or school. So, a teacher at a catholic school cannot sue the catholic school for discrimation if they are fired for not following the catholic requirements. Seems this is exactly the opposite of what you intended - again. This is not about a \*\*Public \*\*school being sued/not sued for discrimation if they refuse to hire a ‘christian/muslim/etc’ based soley on that factor (or shown to have a history of that type of discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/230 "2012-06-12T15:30:00Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > As I stated before, personal beliefs on race are irrelevant. Racial discrimination is a universal moral offense against all mankind, and no religious beliefs should trump it. There is no act of sin involved unlike the act of homosexuality. You can’t choose your race, any more than you can choose your sex. The sin of miscegenation is when you choose to pollute the races by marrying someone of a different race. There’s plenty of Biblical justification for construing that as a sin, starting with the Tower of Babel and the story of Ham. Look it up. Racial discrimination is a moral offense; I’ll agree with you. I’ll go one further, though, and say that discrimination based on sexual preference (as long as we’re talking about preference for consenting adults) is also a moral offense. Just as there’s Biblical justification for considering acts of man-on-man sex to be sins (where the justification is for hating lesbians I dunno), there’s also justification for considering mixed-race marriages a sin. Decent, moral people, however, realize that these are just post-hoc arguments created to buttress bigotry. The good atheists, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Satanists, Muslims, and Pagans (etc.) figure out what’s good and bad independently of what a book tells them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/231 "2012-06-12T15:31:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Uh? The sequence was more like: > > tom: [straight line] > Eve: [punchline] > Polycarp: [repeat of straight line] > Ivory: [congratulations to Poly] Polycarp didn’t repeat; he built on. Consider which title has more to do with **Geeper’s** posts. > [@](#): > > Besides, if anyone wins the thread, it’s me for post #78. Uh, excuse me: > [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > You win the thread. Don’t you go trying to take away my trophy. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/232 "2012-06-12T15:38:40Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Christ did… > Im gonna burn in hell for that one… but Christ wasn’t a Christian ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/233 "2012-06-12T15:41:10Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Certainly not the Southern Baptist Convention which is largest Protestant body in the United States with over 16 million members. 16 million members isn’t a good example of mainstream Christianity from a country with 300 million citizens, of which, 78% profess some kind of Christian belief. Since most of the polls I see these days show over half of Americans support gay marriages, surely a good portion of them are representing mainstream America and Christians than oppose their rights. And there is much contention in the SBC group, they could splinter away their present 16 million members quite easily. I’m amused how much bickering is going on with that group, with even just the name itself and what they want to call themselves. They are holding on, I suppose, just so they can still claim to be the largest Protestant group, despite not getting along very well. As a side note, the primary reason the SBC formed in 1845 was to defend slavery. And they had plenty of scripture support, both in the OT and NT to back up that position. They didn’t even apologize for that position and their past history until around 1995. The [Landscape Survey](http://religions.pewforum.org/reports) “confirms that the US is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country; the number of Americans who report that they are members of Protestant denominations now stands at barely 51%." ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/234 "2012-06-12T15:47:03Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Do you ever read your cites, or do you just vomit up whatever google search appeals to you? > > Here’s the actual SC opinion on teh matter [http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf](http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf) > > HOSANNA-TABOR EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN > CHURCH AND SCHOOL v. EQUAL EMPLOYMENT > OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION ET AL > > Interesting pieces > > For **GEEPERS** the SC said –\> 'The church must be free to choose those who will guide it on its way." If you want well researched replies then don’t expect me to give you rapid replies or respond to most of the questions. A dozen responses in less than 10 minutes. Then I make another post, and there’s 10-20 more so now I’m already 30 replies in the hole from the beginning. Funny thing is no one has really answered my original question. Should a Christian be forced to do something against their beliefs? The main responses are absolutely because the courts say so. That’s not an answer. Courts can be wrong and pass unjust laws. It’s the right of the people to protest the laws too. I suspect if it was any non-religious organizations in the same situation, this debate would definitely not be completely one sided. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/235 "2012-06-12T15:48:32Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > but Christ wasn’t a Christian Damn technicalities ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/236 "2012-06-12T15:49:40Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > But the issue at hand was same-sex marriages - and the State of NM doesn’t give them. But the state of NM doesn’t forbid anyone from having a party for whatever reason they choose. In this case, a public declaration by two people of their love for one another. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/237 "2012-06-12T15:50:42Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Funny thing is no one has really answered my original question. Should a Christian be forced to do something against their beliefs? The main responses is absolutely because the courts say so. Well, I’ll jump in on the side of the “poor, persecuted Christians” here. But I’m on record in numerous threads as saying that I don’t think it should be illegal for private businesses like this to discriminate. The government can’t do it, but private citizens should be able to. I’m sure it’s a minority opinion on this MB, and just so you know, it’s not because I’m a Christian. I’m not. And I fully support SSM, too. But if some photographer doesn’t want to take someone’s picture, for whatever reason, he shouldn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/238 "2012-06-12T15:56:42Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > If you want well researched replies then don’t expect me to give you rapid replies or respond to most of the questions. A dozen responses in less than 10 minutes. Then I make another post, and there’s 10-20 more so now I’m already 30 replies in the hole from the beginning. Well, you’re not _forced_ to reply to anyone. It’s not like anyone’s getting gay-married here. In any case, what’s society coming to when you can’t even maintain a simple unspoken gentlemen’s agreement? Back in the 1950s, this was never a problem. Starving Artist, back me up on this one. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/239 "2012-06-12T15:56:57Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > If you want well researched replies then don’t expect me to give you rapid replies or respond to most of the questions. A dozen responses in less than 10 minutes. Then I make another post, and there’s 10-20 more so now I’m already 30 replies in the hole from the beginning. It’s almost like you’re being discriminated against for your Christian lifestyle choice here. How horrible that must be. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/240 "2012-06-12T15:57:13Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > If you want well researched replies then don’t expect me to give you rapid replies or respond to most of the questions. A dozen responses in less than 10 minutes. Then I make another post, and there’s 10-20 more so now I’m already 30 replies in the hole from the beginning. > > Funny thing is no one has really answered my original question. \*\* Should a Christian be forced to do something against their beliefs?\*\* The main responses are absolutely because the courts say so. That’s not an answer. Courts can be wrong and pass unjust laws. It’s the right of the people to protest the laws too. > > I suspect if it was any non-religious organizations in the same situation, this debate would definitely not be completely one sided. To answer this - again - No Christian is being \*\*\*forced \*\*\*to do anything. A business owner is being required to follow the local laws and ordinances around running a business OR **face a penalty.** They still have the right to choose not to follow said laws and pay whatever fines/penalties are appropriate… and this requirement/choice/etc is not singularly aimed at ‘Christians’ - it is the same requirement for ALL business owners that serve the public. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=13)