# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/301 "2012-06-12T18:05:37Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Refusing service to a gay couple is not discrimination in the same sense as racial discrimination. It is, actually. You still haven’t posted a consistent and convincing reason it’s different. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/302 "2012-06-12T18:06:18Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It’s interesting that you’ve said this to a Christian while arguing with an assortment of people ranging from atheist to agnotic to neopagan to Christian. Me, I eat sugar on my porridge. 🙂 See, that’s the thing about the OP. I don’t think he’s really interested in actual _debate_ about the topics he brings up. I believe he’s really interested in something else. Jesus said you guys\* would be persecuted for following him. The OP isn’t getting enough persecution for his beliefs IRL, so he comes here, posts in a hostile and arrogant manner (all for the purpose of saving souls, of course), correctly expecting hostility in return. Then when he gets it, he can say “See, I’m being persecuted for following Jesus”. Never realizing, of course, that it’s _his_ _hostility_ he’s getting reamed for, not his _beliefs_. The rest of you guys never get that shit. All I can say to that is “Nice example of a ‘True Christian’! Way to save those souls, dude. I’m sure Satan appreciates your efforts.” \*(I believe you’ve said you are Christian, and with _that_ user name it’s an obvious assumption) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/303 "2012-06-12T18:06:51Z")
**GEEPERS** : It does not matter if your particular sect of Christianity does not like a particular class of people and thinks that it is acceptable to discriminate against that class. The law trumps your sect’s discrimination practices. The law says that a public business cannot discriminate against clients because of the fact they are in a protected class. If they want to break the law, that is up to them to do so, and then face the consequences. So to sum up: No, Christians cannot be forced to photograph gay weddings. However, businesses who service the general public cannot discriminate against someone just because they are gay, even if their religious sect, or their individual interpretation of scripture tells them to. It is against the law to do so. Your personal religious interpretation does not render the law incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/304 "2012-06-12T18:10:51Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Does your brand of Christianity conveniently ignore Romans 1:25-27? The three main US Christian denominations certainly agree with me on this matter - Catholics, Southern Baptist and United Methodists. It’s not a matter of ignoring it. It’s a matter of trying to interpret what exactly Paul meant in the context of his letter to the Romans during that 1st century. You, apparently have a different interpretation than I do. I feel convicted that my interpretation has been guided by the Holy Spirit. You may feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/305 "2012-06-12T18:15:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s a name, not a word, and I’m not attempting to assign any specific definition to it or promote its use. I didnt assign the definition. Urban Dictionary did. Im laughing at you, not with you ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/306 "2012-06-12T18:16:47Z")
**GEEPERS,** your only argument here seems to be that you feel that the law should be changed so that sexual orientation is no longer a protected class. You seem to feel that they should not be a protected class because they are sinners. You base this on your personal interpretation of Christian scripture, an interpretation that is not shared by all Christians, and is not shared by others in the country from other faiths. Essentially, you feel that the laws should be changed, against the will of the people, so that you would be free to discriminate against gay people because your own interpretation of Christianity tells you that this would be OK to do so. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/307 "2012-06-12T18:17:02Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > It may not be directly expressing support, but you are forcing people of faith to witness an act that is morally offensive to the person. It’s the same principle if you forced the animal activist to witness the slaughtering of cattle or a taxidermist at work. It’s really closer to hiring a PETA activist to shoot an event that turns out to be a retirement party for a local taxidermist, and then expected him to show up and take the pictures. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/308 "2012-06-12T18:17:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s a name, not a word, and I’m not attempting to assign any specific definition to it or promote its use. > [@dngnb8](#): > > Im laughing at you, not with you Please drop this tedious hijack or take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/309 "2012-06-12T18:18:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please drop this tedious hijack or take it to the Pit. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/310 "2012-06-12T18:19:29Z")
OP, you live in a democracy, not a theocracy. Want to do a job? Be prepared to do it without prejudice according to society’s laws. Don’t expect your bigoted religious views to trump democracy. You perceive human rights legislation as an attack on your religion, rather than a mechanism to balance the various individual and societal needs and beliefs. In that your brand of religion is bigoted, I have no problem at all with you feeling persecuted (although in fact you are not persecuted at all, as has been explained repeatedly up-thread), for the solution is for you to change your prejudiced attitude, rather than for discrimination to continue. Religions over the millenia and throughout the world have been used to promote horrid things. Fortunately, people in first world nations have recognized this, and attempted to put checks in place: witness your own constitution, and more recently, the promotion of human rights legislation. Your choice of religion is in confilict with these advances. It is time that you now step back from your hatred, and recognize that your personal religious beliefs concerning are truly vile. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/311 "2012-06-12T18:25:24Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > So you are willing to let your friend spend eternity in hellfire because it is the PC thing to do these days? Wow, some friend. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I didn’t either. There’s a difference between sentencing someone to hell, and warning someone about the dangers of hellfire. It is your conclusion. Your judgment of him. He hasnt been judged yet. > [@](#): > > I don’t think they should be discriminated against either in terms of treating them any less than other fellow human being. I don’t believe it’s right to discriminate against registered sex offenders either even though the laws are highly discriminatory after they have paid their debt to society. I do believe I have to right to know that a sex offender lives in my neighborhood. Paying ones debt for a crime doesnt mean they wont commit them again. What one does with the information is the key > [@](#): > > Refusing service to a gay couple is not discrimination in the same sense as racial discrimination. Yes it is. No matter how much you insist it isnt, it is. > [@](#): > > Christians are being forced to accept and witness immoral acts (photographing men kissing for example) or be punished. You don’t think that is wrong? Simple solution. Dont make the business available to general public. Many Christian organizations list Christian service’s. Problem solved. This is a case of not knowing the laws of Caesar. There is an out. They can use it. > [@](#): > > I am willing to bet 100% any belief I have in the Bible, you will stubbornly disagree because you could never bring yourself to admit that I’m right about anything. Not once. That’s arrogance. Ironic. You continue to ignore the scripture, that points to your behavior being not withing Biblical standards, and you continue to defend that behavior and call me arrogant for not agreeing. Was was that about a tree in your eye? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/312 "2012-06-12T18:35:19Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I don’t believe it’s right to discriminate against registered sex offenders either even though the laws are highly discriminatory after they have paid their debt to society. _Really?!?_ You wouldn’t discriminate against a registered sex offender if you were looking for a babysitter? I have no idea what led to this little sub-hijack, but we all discriminate all the time. It’s just that society has decided that certain forms of discrimination are so vile, that we’ve made it against the law. Christian business owners refusing service to someone because he’s gay is a vile kind of discrimination, and several places have made that illegal. > [@](#): > > Refusing service to a gay couple is not discrimination in the same sense as racial discrimination. Christians are being forced to accept and witness immoral acts (photographing men kissing for example) or be punished. You don’t think that is wrong? How do you figure that racial discrimination is not the same sense as sexual orientation discrimination? It seems the same to me, and to the legislators of New Mexico. Your saying this about gays is completely equivalent to another person saying “Christians are being forced to accept and witness immoral acts (photographing interracial couples kissing for example) or be punished. You don’t think that is wrong?”. No, I don’t think that’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/313 "2012-06-12T18:47:01Z")
I think I get this, and it’s at the core of **GEEPERS** issue with all this. Item 1- Being gay is a sin. Item 2- Sinning is bad, and forbidden by whatever church he attends. Item 3- Being gay is a \*\*\*CHOICE \*\*\*, ergo… Item 4- Being gay should not be a protected class, and thus should be able to be treated like the sinners that they are. Anything else is handwaving, and nothing one can say will convince him of the wrongness of this position. **GEEPERS** , is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/314 "2012-06-12T18:57:06Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I think I get this, and it’s at the core of **GEEPERS** issue with all this. > > Item 1- Being gay is a sin. > Item 2- Sinning is bad, and forbidden by whatever church he attends. > Item 3- Being gay is a \*\*\*CHOICE \*\*\*, ergo… > Item 4- Being gay should not be a protected class, and thus should be able to be treated like the sinners that they are. > > Anything else is handwaving, and nothing one can say will convince him of the wrongness of this position. > > **GEEPERS** , is that about right? I’d bet he or she doesn’t care if it’s a choice or not. If the Bible said being black was wrong, then making racial discrimination against the law soul be an "attack“ on his or her religion. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/315 "2012-06-12T19:05:59Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Should a gay photographer be forced to photograph weddings at NC pastor Charles Worley’s church? I suppose we could tease out an answer to this by having a look at NC’s standards for what constitutes a public accommodation, AND whether NC places gender/sexual orientation into a suspect class for the purposes of protected rights. OTOH, it might be quicker if you find someone who wants to marry you, book Rev. Worley and his facility for the wedding, and offer the gig to the first gay wedding photographer you can find. Report back to us with what you learn. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/316 "2012-06-12T19:06:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, I’ll jump in on the side of the “poor, persecuted Christians” here. But I’m on record in numerous threads as saying that I don’t think it should be illegal for private businesses like this to discriminate. The government can’t do it, but private citizens should be able to. > > I’m sure it’s a minority opinion on this MB, and just so you know, it’s not because I’m a Christian. I’m not. And I fully support SSM, too. But if some photographer doesn’t want to take someone’s picture, for whatever reason, he shouldn’t have to. I think I agree on just about every point. Photographers who refuse to service this sector of the business on the grounds of their personal opinions are dumb and wrong, and maybe they’re helping to maintain a stronghold of ignorance and personal intolerance, but by not wanting to take photographs, are they really infringing anyone’s fundamental rights? If it’s art, I don’t think it’s right to impose upon its content - kinda better if they can openly express their prejudice, and try to educate the hopeful majority of openminded customers to vote with their cash. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/317 "2012-06-12T19:11:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It is, actually. You still haven’t posted a consistent and convincing reason it’s different. And you haven’t posted any good counter-argument with supporting evidence demonstrating exactly why I am wrong. I posted a clear distinction between homosexuality as a lifestyle choice vs other forms of discrimination where a person does not have such a choice. Now this did birth the genetic homosexuality discussion which unfortunately got buried under countless replies. Maybe I’ll get back to it someday. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/318 "2012-06-12T19:16:21Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Should a gay photographer be forced to photograph weddings at NC pastor Charles Worley’s church? Of course not. Being a loud-mouthed jerk is not a protected class. As a business owner, you are well within your rights to turn away someone that is just obnoxious, no matter if that person is also a member of a protected class, as long as you can reasonably prove that you turned them away just because of their obnoxiousness. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/319 "2012-06-12T19:17:52Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Refusing service to a gay couple is not discrimination in the same sense as racial discrimination. Christians are being forced to accept and witness immoral acts (photographing men kissing for example) or be punished. You don’t think that is wrong? There is no objective difference - someone who had a firm religious conviction that interracial relationships were sinful, they’d feel the same way as you do about being forced to watch a black man kissing a white woman - and there is no special objective reason why they would be any more or less right than you. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/320 "2012-06-12T19:18:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I think I agree on just about every point. Photographers who refuse to service this sector of the business on the grounds of their personal opinions are dumb and wrong, and maybe they’re helping to maintain a stronghold of ignorance and personal intolerance, but by not wanting to take photographs, are they really infringing anyone’s fundamental rights? > > If it’s art, I don’t think it’s right to impose upon its content - kinda better if they can openly express their prejudice, and try to educate the hopeful majority of openminded customers to vote with their cash. It’s certainly not comparable to the civil rights era where blacks did not have a choice. This gay couple could have easily went to another photographer, but they decided to raise a big stink about it, most likely costing taxpayers a good deal of coin. The Christian photographer is not even saying to the gay couple that your lifestyle does not meet our standards of approval. They are merely saying that they are uncomfortable photographing a gay couple. I wouldn’t be either especially if it was in a church. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=17)