# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/761 "2013-08-25T12:28:34Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > That’s why the appeals process exists. Hopefully a higher court will vote for religious freedom. So bigotry is good as long as the Bible is behind it. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/762 "2013-08-25T14:08:43Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So bigotry is good as long as the Bible is behind it. Freedom of association is good. Better than P.C. totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/763 "2013-08-25T14:39:29Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > That’s why the appeals process exists. Hopefully a higher court will vote for religious freedom. It’s got nothing to do with religious freedom. Unless you think restaurants having to serve black couples even though their religion frowns on miscegenation violates it too. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/764 "2013-08-25T15:15:08Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Freedom of association is good. Better than P.C. totalitarianism. Requiring a business to serve the public equally is P.C. totalitarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/765 "2013-08-25T17:49:49Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > That’s why the appeals process exists. Hopefully a higher court will vote for religious freedom. I didn’t realize professional photography was a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/766 "2013-08-25T17:54:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I didn’t realize professional photography was a religion. You’ve never been in a “digital photography” vs. “_real_ photography” discussion with a professional photographer, have you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/767 "2013-08-25T19:31:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I didn’t realize professional photography was a religion. Yes. It steals your soul. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/768 "2013-08-25T19:48:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes. It steals your soul. Only when they take your picture for your drivers license. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/769 "2013-08-25T20:13:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I didn’t realize professional photography was a religion. A wedding photographer, caterer, musician, reception DJ is a hired participant in the celebration. If such a celebration is against one’s faith, then one should be free to refuse the business. And as wrong as I believe such a belief would be, that goes for people who object to inter-racial marriages also. This is where we see the lie behind such liberal slogans as “Don’t believe in gay marriage? Don’t have one!” when they really mean “And don’t dare be in any business where we can make you participate in one, because we will!” ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/770 "2013-08-25T20:15:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s got nothing to do with religious freedom. Unless you think restaurants having to serve black couples even though their religion frowns on miscegenation violates it too. Being forced to attend & participate in a wedding celebration is a lot different that seating/serving people in a restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/771 "2013-08-25T20:19:54Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > A wedding photographer, caterer, musician, reception DJ is a hired participant in the celebration. If such a celebration is against one’s faith, then one should be free to refuse the business. They are not participating, they’re paid to be there and provide a service. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/772 "2013-08-25T20:24:38Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Being forced to attend & participate in a wedding celebration is a lot different that seating/serving people in a restaurant. No, it isn’t. By this reasoning an Italian restaurant couldn’t refuse to serve gay people because they come into the restaurant, but pizza place could refuse to deliver to a gay couple. That wouldn’t make any sense. The issue is this: at least under New Mexico law, if you’re a business that advertises services to the general public, it makes no difference if your business involves you going someplace or the public coming to you. If you advertise the public at large, you are a public accommodation and you are not allowed to discriminate based on sexual orientation or other grounds. > [@doreen](#): > > The definition of public accomodation under the New Mexico Human Rights act is found in NMSA 21-8-1-2 > > H. “public accommodation” means any establishment that provides or offers its services, facilities, accommodations or goods to the public, but does not include a bona fide private club or other place or establishment that is by its nature and use distinctly private; > > and 28-1-1-7 covers sexual orientation > “F. any person in any public accommodation to make a distinction, directly or indirectly, in offering or refusing to offer its services, facilities, accommodations or goods to any person because of race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, spousal affiliation or physical or mental handicap, provided that the physical or mental handicap is unrelated to a person’s ability to acquire or rent and maintain particular real property or housing accommodation;” > > If a photography business advertises on the internet and the Yellow Pages, as this one did, it is almost certainly going to be considered a public accommodation. If the photographer only photographs events occurring at a particular church which does not perform same-sex ceremonies and only advertises to members of that church, it’s very likely not going be considered a public accommodation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/773 "2013-08-25T20:46:38Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > …“And don’t dare be in any business where we can make you participate in one, because we will!” I have no problem with sticking it to bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/774 "2013-08-25T23:35:22Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > A wedding photographer, caterer, musician, reception DJ is a hired participant in the celebration. If such a celebration is against one’s faith, then one should be free to refuse the business. In what way is it different? > [@](#): > > And as wrong as I believe such a belief would be, that goes for people who object to inter-racial marriages also. Well, the law says different. Do you think that sexual orientation deserves less protection run race under the law? > [@](#): > > This is where we see the lie behind such liberal slogans as “Don’t believe in gay marriage? Don’t have one!” when they really mean “And don’t dare be in any business where we can make you participate in one, because we will!” It’s not actually an issue related to gy marriage, but gay rights in general. I don’t think it should be legal to discriminate against gays if you’re operating a public business. The nature of that business is immaterial. Wedding photography should not be treated any differently than any other business. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/775 "2013-08-26T02:53:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I have no problem with sticking it to bigots. Of course, because you believe in coerced servitude over freedom of religion & association. Question- why would gays want to give their marriage business to people who object to their sexuality, who would at best do their job without any enthusiasm, & then possibly contribute money earned to anti-gay causes? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/776 "2013-08-26T02:58:56Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Of course, because you believe in coerced servitude over freedom of religion & association. > > Question- why would gays want to give their marriage business to people who object to their sexuality, who would at best do their job without any enthusiasm, & then possibly contribute money earned to anti-gay causes? When you open a business to the public, you have to expect the public to walk in expecting to buy. Until the would-be customer is told s/he’s less than human, how can s/he know their existence is offensive? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/777 "2013-08-26T02:59:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In what way is it different? > > Well, the law says different. Do you think that sexual orientation deserves less protection run race under the law? > > It’s not actually an issue related to gy marriage, but gay rights in general. I don’t think it should be legal to discriminate against gays if you’re operating a public business. The nature of that business is immaterial. Wedding photography should not be treated any differently than any other business. Yes, I do believe sexual orientation is a great deal different than race. And so do you. You believe that people of all races should be protected by law from discrimination. Do you believe that about people of all sexual orientations? Or only those on the approved SLGBTQ… continuum? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/778 "2013-08-26T03:32:06Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yes, I do believe sexual orientation is a great deal different than race. And so do you. You believe that people of all races should be protected by law from discrimination. Do you believe that about people of all sexual orientations? Or only those on the approved SLGBTQ… continuum? Can you please give an example of a _non-coercive_ (because I’m expecting the “gotcha” I typically hear here) sexual orientation that is NOT on the “approved” continuum? And for the record, if a person walks into your store and says “I’m a pedophile, but I’ve never touched a kid because that would be wrong.”, yes, I am just as opposed to you discriminating against him/her as anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/779 "2013-08-26T03:39:13Z")
I’ll go further than Miller, by the by: If you’re operating a business that is open to public custom, I do not believe you should be legally allowed to refuse to serve anyone who has not engaged in some sort of malfeasance related to you or your business. (Somewhat obviously, I’m fine with one having the ability to throw out the nonpaying, disruptive, or otherwise misbehaving customer) This, also somewhat obviously, allows churches and membership-based organizations to continue to discriminate, and church-run religiously oriented businesses to discriminate up to the limits of the magisterial exemption, which is fine with me. Churches and organizations that continue to discriminate against people based on sexual orientation will, within my lifetime, go the way churches and organizations that discriminated based on race have been going–they will change, or they will sink into fringe lunacy. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/780 "2013-08-26T03:39:28Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Of course, because you believe in coerced servitude over freedom of religion & association. > > Question- why would gays want to give their marriage business to people who object to their sexuality, who would at best do their job without any enthusiasm, & then possibly contribute money earned to anti-gay causes? A religion is an explanation for bigotry, not an excuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=40)