# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/781 "2013-08-26T03:50:19Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yes, I do believe sexual orientation is a great deal different than race. And so do you. You believe that people of all races should be protected by law from discrimination. Do you believe that about people of all sexual orientations? Or only those on the approved SLGBTQ… continuum? Somehow you’ve managed to skate by under my radar for the almost 13 years I’ve been posting here, as a conservative Christian (which I knew) but not as a serious bigot (which this post has just proved to me). It’s kind of disappointing to find this out. Not that you’d care…after all, I’m no better than a pedophile, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/782 "2013-08-26T04:09:59Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Can you please give an example of a _non-coercive_ (because I’m expecting the “gotcha” I typically hear here) sexual orientation that is NOT on the “approved” continuum? Consensual adult incest. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/783 "2013-08-26T04:31:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Somehow you’ve managed to skate by under my radar for the almost 13 years I’ve been posting here, as a conservative Christian (which I knew) but not as a serious bigot (which this post has just proved to me). It’s kind of disappointing to find this out. Not that you’d care…after all, I’m no better than a pedophile, apparently. Oh please. Just because I don’t believe you should be considered a race doesn’t mean I believe you are a criminal, much less a capital one. (Yes, I believe that in a perfect justice system, child rape/seduction would be a captial crime.) I’m just pointing out that “sexual orientation” isn’t some magical formula that immediately demands respect. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/784 "2013-08-26T04:33:34Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Consensual adult incest. That’s not a sexual orientation, though. And as far as the case goes: if they were to set up a private club, they could discriminate. If they offer their business to the whole public, they can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/785 "2013-08-26T04:43:20Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Question- why would gays want to give their marriage business to people who object to their sexuality, who would at best do their job without any enthusiasm, & then possibly contribute money earned to anti-gay causes? Because I want to live in the world where I can just go out and exist without worrying about that. Do you think people _like_ having to worry about whether a business “objects to their sexuality”? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/786 "2013-08-26T04:44:12Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Consensual adult incest. Could I have a cite for the idea that there are people who have “incest” as an _orientation_, that is, that they are specifically and predominantly attracted to members of their own family? Are there any laws on incest on the books/being enforced for reasons other than genetic threat to offspring or coercion risk? In my state, for example, prohibited incest involves either an implied age/authority gap (uncle/aunt with niece/nephew is prohibited, as is parent/adopted child, but first cousins are not) or very close consanguinity (siblings, parents, step-siblings). I look upon both of those things (coercion risk and genetic threat) as matters separate from the morality of the sexual act itself, and I doubt I’m alone in saying that in the context of a non-coercive relationship that incest should be permitted insofar as it doesn’t produce genetically at-risk offspring (dealt with by long-term birth control, sterilization, or genetic testing, I don’t care). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/787 "2013-08-26T05:24:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s got nothing to do with religious freedom. Unless you think restaurants having to serve black couples even though their religion frowns on miscegenation violates it too. Race is a protected class. So race is different than sexual orientation and the two cannot really be used interchangably. Discriminating against sexual orientation on the basis of religion is no different than discriminating against Republicans on the basis of religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/788 "2013-08-26T05:28:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Race is a protected class. So race is different than sexual orientation and the two cannot really be used interchangably. New Mexico law appears to treat sexual orientation as a protected class, and the law seems to be moving in that direction anyway. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/789 "2013-08-26T05:35:19Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > A wedding photographer, caterer, musician, reception DJ is a hired participant in the celebration. If such a celebration is against one’s faith, then one should be free to refuse the business. > > And as wrong as I believe such a belief would be, that goes for people who object to inter-racial marriages also. > > This is where we see the lie behind such liberal slogans as “Don’t believe in gay marriage? Don’t have one!” when they really mean “And don’t dare be in any business where we can make you participate in one, because we will!” You make an interesting set of points. I’m a musician … a full time pro, I work in public and private venues. Years ago I refused to take a booking at a rodeo because I think rodeos are animal cruelty. Under the laws as they are presented in this thread, could the rodeo have forced me to perform at their event? Forcing stores that sell staples or restaurants that serve food to deal with every possible customer seems somehow different to me than forcing artists to create art against their will. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/790 "2013-08-26T05:39:00Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > You make an interesting set of points. I’m a musician … a full time pro, I work in public and private venues. Years ago I refused to take a booking at a rodeo because I think rodeos are animal cruelty. Under the laws as they are presented in this thread, could the rodeo have forced me to perform at their event? [No.](http://law.justia.com/codes/new-mexico/2006/nmrc/jd_28-1-7-bcb3.html) In certain contexts you can’t discriminate on the basis of “race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, spousal affiliation or physical or mental handicap.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/791 "2013-08-26T08:05:32Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Of course, because you believe in coerced servitude over freedom of religion & association. “Coercion”. Heh. Why, yes; yes, I do endorse the “coercion” of federal law against those who think their religion entitles them to special privilege to discriminate against protected classes. I also support coercion against those who refuse to pay taxes or insist on driving drunk. Religion is no excuse for bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/792 "2013-08-26T13:07:57Z")
"You make an interesting set of points. I’m a musician … a full time pro, I work in public and private venues. Years ago I refused to take a booking at a rodeo because I think rodeos are animal cruelty. Under the laws as they are presented in this thread, could the rodeo have forced me to perform at their event? Forcing stores that sell staples or restaurants that serve food to deal with every possible customer seems somehow different to me than forcing artists to create art against their will." > [@Marley23](#): > > [No.](http://law.justia.com/codes/new-mexico/2006/nmrc/jd_28-1-7-bcb3.html) In certain contexts you can’t discriminate on the basis of “race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, spousal affiliation or physical or mental handicap.” How about if it’s a gay rodeo? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/793 "2013-08-26T13:26:51Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > forcing artists to create art against their will. It’s like that old joke, “We already know what kind of girl you are, now we’re just haggling on price.” You put up your shingle, advertise yourself as an “artist for hire” you don’t get refuse clients on the basis of their inclusion in state/federally protected classes. If you can’t manage that, don’t be an artist for hire, let someone who can be a professional do the work instead. I promise, nobody is going to force you to be an artist for hire, it’s entirely your choice. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/794 "2013-08-26T13:30:10Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > …it’s entirely your choice. Okie dokie. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/795 "2013-08-26T13:41:33Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > How about if it’s a gay rodeo? You can still object based on the animal cruelty aspect. Your reasoning just can’t be because it’s “gay.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/796 "2013-08-26T13:56:03Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > How about if it’s a gay rodeo? There’s a terrible joke to be made about steers and queers here, and I am not a good enough person to ignore it. For that matter “gay rodeo” can be interpreted a couple of different ways. But like **Sinaptics** says, the deal is this: you can refuse to play rodeos if you’re opposed to them. People who go to rodeos are not a protected class. If you market your services to the public, you cannot refuse to play this one rodeo because it’s for gay people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/797 "2013-08-26T14:00:04Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s like that old joke, “We already know what kind of girl you are, now we’re just haggling on price.” > > You put up your shingle, advertise yourself as an “artist for hire” you don’t get refuse clients on the basis of their inclusion in state/federally protected classes. If you can’t manage that, don’t be an artist for hire, let someone who can be a professional do the work instead. I promise, nobody is going to force you to be an artist for hire, it’s entirely your choice. This just now reminded me of the long-ago SDMB [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=237862) where folks debated whether a prostitute could legally say _“I won’t have sex with black people”_. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/798 "2013-08-26T14:11:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There’s a terrible joke to be made about steers and queers here, and I am not a good enough person to ignore it. For that matter “gay rodeo” can be interpreted a couple of different ways. But like **Sinaptics** says, the deal is this: you can refuse to play rodeos if you’re opposed to them. People who go to rodeos are not a protected class. If you market your services to the public, you cannot refuse to play this one rodeo because it’s for gay people. Well that’s a relief cause I like gay people, but I don’t like animal cruelty. I’m still on the fence regarding gay cowboys. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/799 "2013-08-26T14:15:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > “Coercion”. Heh. Why, yes; yes, I do endorse the “coercion” of federal law against those who think their religion entitles them to special privilege to discriminate against protected classes. I also support coercion against those who refuse to pay taxes or insist on driving drunk. Religion is no excuse for bigotry. I hate myself a little for disagreeing with you here, but…I’m about to. I believe that my goods/products/services belong to ME and who I choose to sell/give them to should be 100% my choice. If I as an individual choose to discriminate against left-handed Anabaptists, I should have the freedom to do so. I also realize that, in the real world (as opposed to my quasi-libertarian ideal above) that this wouldn’t work and would lead to much suffering and hardship among…um…less popular (for lack of a better term) minorities. That said, it _is_ (IMO) coercion. That’s precisely the right word. It’s necessary to keep society working and to protect minorities, but let’s not tapdance–forcing someone to work for a person/group they don’t want to _is_, pretty much, the definition of coercive. So’s being forced to pay taxes. That they’re coercive doesn’t change the fact that both of those rules are needed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/800 "2013-08-26T15:15:10Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yes, I do believe sexual orientation is a great deal different than race. And so do you. You believe that people of all races should be protected by law from discrimination. Do you believe that about people of all sexual orientations? Or only those on the approved SLGBTQ… continuum? Yes, of course I think that people of all sexual orientations should be protected by law. Note that “incestuous” is not considered a sexual orientation by anyone, include (so far as I’m aware) people who commit incest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=41)