# Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847 "2012-06-11T19:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/801 "2013-08-26T16:04:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > New Mexico law appears to treat sexual orientation as a protected class, and the law seems to be moving in that direction anyway. What’s idiotic in this case is: NEW MEXICO DOES NOT RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE! In short, the SUpreme Court is requiring photographers to show more respect for gay marriage than the state does. Here’s another question: is it EVER okay for a photographer to turn down a potential client on moral grounds? Suppose a prominent local man dumped his wife of 30 years to marry a hot 19 year old girl. Can the photographer make a moral judgment and say, “I refuse to work at your wedding?” SUppose a Mormon wanted trhe photographer to work at his wedding to bride #5? COuld the photographer turn that job offer down? Suppose a couple getting married at a nudist colony tried to hire a prudish Christian photogtapher, who said, “That’s a disgusting, immoral lifestyle, and I won’t work at your wedding?” Legally, why is it okay to discriminate against SOME sexual behaviors but not others? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/802 "2013-08-26T16:11:07Z")
Homosexuality is not a behavior. And the answer is because there’s a law that restricts discrimination on one basis but not the other. If adultery, polygamy or nudism are protected classes then it would be illegal to discriminate against them for that reason. This isn’t that hard. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/803 "2013-08-26T16:14:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > New Mexico law appears to treat sexual orientation as a protected class, and the law seems to be moving in that direction anyway. When it comes to constitutional rights to freedom of religion association and speech, states laws don’t mean very much. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/804 "2013-08-26T16:24:46Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > What’s idiotic in this case is: NEW MEXICO DOES NOT RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE! Lots of states have that idiotic problem, at least for now. > [@](#): > > In short, the SUpreme Court is requiring photographers to show more respect for gay marriage than the state does. That’s kind of ironic. But whether they recognize same-sex marriage or not, they don’t allow businesses to discriminate against gays. > [@](#): > > Here’s another question: is it EVER okay for a photographer to turn down a potential client on moral grounds? Yes. This is not that complicated. If you’re a public accommodation, you cannot discriminate based on sex, religion, race, and some similar criteria. I think some of the people who are criticizing the ruling want the law to be broader than it really is. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/805 "2013-08-26T16:28:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When it comes to constitutional rights to freedom of religion association and speech, states laws don’t mean very much. In what way has Elane Photography had their freedom of religion or speech infringed upon? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/806 "2013-08-26T16:33:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > What’s idiotic in this case is: NEW MEXICO DOES NOT RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE! CITE as it seems to be ambiguous now? Judge Sarah Singleton, ruling on a lawsuit brought by two Santa Fe men wishing to marry, issued an order Thursday directing the clerk’s office in Santa Fe County to issue licenses to gay and lesbian couples Santa Fe County is New Mexico’s third most populous county, and the city of Santa Fe is the state capital. Doña Ana County, the second largest in the state, began issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples Wednesday. About 90 licenses have been provided to these couples so far, the AP reports. Some Republican legislators are planning to file suit to stop the issuance there. > **[Same-Sex Couples Marry in Santa Fe, N.M.](https://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2013/08/23/same-sex-couples-marry-santa-fe-nm)** > > A judge's ruling allows for licenses to be issued in Santa Fe County, while the statewide fate of marriage equality remains to be determined. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/807 "2013-08-26T16:44:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When it comes to constitutional rights to freedom of religion association and speech, states laws don’t mean very much. True, but where civil rights laws and freedom of religion meet, the constitutional status has been worked out for about 50 years now. Just like a bigoted hotel owner in Alabama can’t refuse a room to people on the basis of their race, a bigoted photographer in New Mexico can’t refuse service to people on the basis of their being gay. In New Mexico, civil rights laws have been extended to include sexual orientation as a protected class. > [@stpauler](#): > > CITE as it seems to be ambiguous now? > > Judge Sarah Singleton, ruling on a lawsuit brought by two Santa Fe men wishing to marry, issued an order Thursday directing the clerk’s office in Santa Fe County to issue licenses to gay and lesbian couples Interesting, but it’s really a separate issue from this topic. Whether or not the gay wedding was state-recognized, the photographer can’t refuse service because they’re gay. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/808 "2013-08-26T16:51:16Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Interesting, but it’s really a separate issue from this topic. Whether or not the gay wedding was state-recognized, the photographer can’t refuse service because they’re gay. Exactly. This isn’t really a case about gay marriage. It’s about discrimination against gays. I agree that refusing to recognize same-sex marriage is discrimination against gays, but that’s not the pertinent issue here- the case just happened to involve a wedding photographer. If it had been a restaurant the issue would be the same. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/809 "2013-08-26T16:58:17Z")
OK, here’s a hypothetical scenario: a gay couple go to the Xtian photographer at the photography studio that features a Jesus Fish in their Yellow Pages ad. The couple walks in and says: “Look you right-wing S.O.B., you better photograph our wedding or we’ll slap you so hard!” Question: could the photographer decline the job on the basis of the customer being rude? You can re-word the scenario any way that fits your sensibilities … doesn’t change the point … if the prospective client is rude, whether a gay consumer, a Black consumer or one with a bizarre religious theme in mind, like say a Satanic wedding, if the customer is rude to the businessman, must he do business with them? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/810 "2013-08-26T17:10:26Z")
No. Come on. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/811 "2013-08-26T17:13:11Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > OK, here’s a hypothetical scenario: a gay couple go to the Xtian photographer at the photography studio that features a Jesus Fish in their Yellow Pages ad. The couple walks in and says: “Look you right-wing S.O.B., you better photograph our wedding or we’ll slap you so hard!” > > Question: could the photographer decline the job on the basis of the customer being rude? > > You can re-word the scenario any way that fits your sensibilities … doesn’t change the point … if the prospective client is rude, whether a gay consumer, a Black consumer or one with a bizarre religious theme in mind, like say a Satanic wedding, if the customer is rude to the businessman, must he do business with them? “Your honor, the record clearly shows that I’ve worked with a number of black customers. It’s just that I refuse to work with _ **uppity** _ black customers.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/812 "2013-08-26T17:15:03Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > OK, here’s a hypothetical scenario: a gay couple go to the Xtian photographer at the photography studio that features a Jesus Fish in their Yellow Pages ad. The couple walks in and says: “Look you right-wing S.O.B., you better photograph our wedding or we’ll slap you so hard!” > > Question: could the photographer decline the job on the basis of the customer being rude? In the real world, the photographer agrees and quotes a price that is higher than his usual as an asshole tax. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/813 "2013-08-26T17:15:09Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > OK, here’s a hypothetical scenario: a gay couple go to the Xtian photographer at the photography studio that features a Jesus Fish in their Yellow Pages ad. The couple walks in and says: “Look you right-wing S.O.B., you better photograph our wedding or we’ll slap you so hard!” > > Question: could the photographer decline the job on the basis of the customer being rude? > > You can re-word the scenario any way that fits your sensibilities … doesn’t change the point … if the prospective client is rude, whether a gay consumer, a Black consumer or one with a bizarre religious theme in mind, like say a Satanic wedding, if the customer is rude to the businessman, must he do business with them? When the hell did the topic of this thread, or any argument for or against up to this point, have anything to do with rudeness? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/814 "2013-08-26T17:27:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When the hell did the topic of this thread, or any argument for or against up to this point, have anything to do with rudeness? Here’s were the hell it has to do with it … if a business, in this case a photographer, sees that it can’t object to working for a prospective client on religious grounds because the clients protected-class status trumps the religious freedom claimed by the photographer (the photog is Xtian and it’s against their beliefs to be involved in a gay wedding), then I don’t think it would take very long for said businesses to try to find some other means of avoiding said clients and their events. One of the ways might be to claim that the customer was just too rude and/ or hard to work with. Is this where the further lawsuits start? And why the minor league outrage, like I’m the only one who’s thought of this? Y’all ought to put you “knee-jerk” setting on a lower number. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/815 "2013-08-26T17:31:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. Come on. I think you are wrong. I could, as a business owner turn you down and refuse to explain why I wouldn’t photograph your wedding. It would then not be discrimination against gays, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/816 "2013-08-26T17:37:40Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Question: could the photographer decline the job on the basis of the customer being rude? > [snip] > if the customer is rude to the businessman, must he do business with them? SirGalahad has written his question in two different ways. While I don’t want to speak for Marley, I believe his “No, come on.” response is to the second formulation and not the first. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/817 "2013-08-26T17:38:27Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I think you are wrong. I could, as a business owner turn you down and refuse to explain why I wouldn’t photograph your wedding. > > It would then not be discrimination against gays, correct? Oh, you’re brave … there’s feet attached to those knees, you know? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/818 "2013-08-26T17:40:38Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > SirGalahad has written his question in two different ways. While I don’t want to speak for Marley, I believe his “No, come on.” response is to the second formulation and not the first. Here’s another cliche to go with “knee jerk”, that’s : “spitting hairs”. It was a simple question. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/819 "2013-08-26T17:49:26Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Here’s were the hell it has to do with it … if a business, in this case a photographer, sees that it can’t object to working for a prospective client on religious grounds because the clients protected-class status trumps the religious freedom claimed by the photographer (the photog is Xtian and it’s against their beliefs to be involved in a gay wedding), then I don’t think it would take very long for said businesses to try to find some other means of avoiding said clients and their events. > [@Kearsen](#): > > I think you are wrong. I could, as a business owner turn you down and refuse to explain why I wouldn’t photograph your wedding. > > It would then not be discrimination against gays, correct? That’s not what **SirGalahad** asked. **SirGalahad** asked if the law lets customers go berserk and be abusive to businesses as long as they’re members of protected classes. The answer is obviously no. To your question: I think here you are both assuming that if a business makes a habit of discriminating against gays (or blacks, or whoever) that it won’t develop a reputation in that community. If that happened, they very well might get sued for discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847/820 "2013-08-26T17:50:34Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Here’s were the hell it has to do with it … if a business, in this case a photographer, sees that it can’t object to working for a prospective client on religious grounds because the clients protected-class status trumps the religious freedom claimed by the photographer (the photog is Xtian and it’s against their beliefs to be involved in a gay wedding), then I don’t think it would take very long for said businesses to try to find some other means of avoiding said clients and their events. One of the ways might be to claim that the customer was just too rude and/ or hard to work with. Is this where the further lawsuits start? And why the minor league outrage, like I’m the only one who’s thought of this? Yes, there are ways to circumvent many laws. What’s your point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-christians-be-forced-to-photograph-gay-weddings/624847.md?page=42)